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Do we tend to ignore the true facts ?

(130 Posts)
Wiltshiregran Sun 23-Feb-20 20:00:46

On these pages over the last 12 months there has been a considerable anti Labour campaign.

Yet, During the last 50 years we have had 10 Conservative PM's and 5 Labour PM's . During the 50 yr period the Conservatives have been in charge of the economy and infrastructure for 32 years, 64% of the period and Labour only for 18 years.
The worst crises in the 50 yrs being in the 90's under Thatcher when on Black Wednesday UK interest rates shot up to 15%.
It makes me wonder why there was so much anti against Labour rather than the Tories on Gransnet prior to the GE, was it due to Tabloid brainwashing propaganda or true life experiences or just sheer prejudice or the Corbyn syndrome ?

GagaJo Sun 23-Feb-20 20:09:22

I think most people in the UK are deeply class based. In addition, I think they trust the establishment. Anyone of middle class or above fear socialism, because they see it as taking away from them.

The working classes are kept down, through inferior education. Even as a teacher, I see this as deliberate policy. So many hurdles are put in the way of the educational system, there is no way it is by chance. If the minds of the workers aren't developed, they don't have the analytical skills to see that 'the establishment' is NEVER going to help them. That the right wing is only out for itself, as we can see now with the current government.

In addition, the establishment have SO much money behind them. They can afford a horrific media campaign and have no compunction about lying. Power is all, to them. Once in power, they can do what they want, until the next round of election lies.

I will never live to see a government which really has the welfare of the people they are supposed to represent at heart. I fear we are heading back to an extreme right-wing to rival that of the Nazis. Terrifying.

lemongrove Sun 23-Feb-20 20:15:09

Firstly, I would say that it was probably equal measures between LP voters and other voters on GN.
There was of course, ( from many LP voters here) a lot of doubts expressed by them regarding Corbyn and the manifesto. This doubt was also felt by LP voters in the country, they thought Corbyn out of touch with them and thought him unpatriotic, anti-Semitic and a rigid idealist.
The Corbyn syndrome, as you call it was the main reason people felt anti-Labour IMHO.

POGS Sun 23-Feb-20 20:23:04

Wiltshiregran

' It makes me wonder why there was so much anti against Labour rather than the Tories on Gransnet prior to the GE, was it due to Tabloid brainwashing propaganda or true life experiences or just sheer prejudice or the Corbyn syndrome ?'
---

Your question about ignoring facts has an ironic ring to it because many Gransnet posters would say there has been a concerted effort to attack the Conservative Party on Gransnet and not only over the last 12 months.

I think the ' fact ' is if you vote or hold either left or right wing political views you will say the other side has been engaged in a concerted effort to attack you.

Have you counted how many threads or posts support or opinion to be able to state the ' facts'.

lemongrove Sun 23-Feb-20 20:31:01

If one side thinks that only ‘it’ holds the facts.....that way lies
Madness.😁

GagaJo Sun 23-Feb-20 20:35:31

I appreciate your attempt to 'stand back' and look at the bigger picture, Wiltshiregran. It's something I like to do, to make sense of things a bit. What seems like madness is easier to handle if you can understand the 'why' of it.

We are unique in the UK, in that we stuck with a rigid class system and a royalty, in a way that other countries haven't. It means, in essence, politically, we're stuck into a rigid system following old patterns of privilege. It is painted over the top with 'democracy', but it isn't a truly democratic system we have now.

I am no expert. I have NO idea how we change things in the UK. I'm as British as the next person. I can see the patterns but have no idea how we change.

Doodledog Sun 23-Feb-20 20:41:10

I think that the idea that people vote based on class is outdated and inaccurate. I don't have the figures, but I believe that the majority of Labour Party members are middle class, for instance, and it has always been the case that the Tories have had a lot of support from the deferential working class. If voting depended on class, the Labour party would have been in power for far more terms than it has - although, of course, what determines 'class' is very debatable these days. Maybe it is more about aspiration than the old 'relationship to the means of production'. Many people who would consider themselves to be middle class would be classified as working class under that definition, and I wonder if changing people's views about where they sit in the class structure has had an impact on voting behaviour.

I believe that the media are responsible for years of Tory rule; but I am also not sure how we are supposed to find 'true facts' to believe or ignore. As we know, two people can experience the same thing and give completely different accounts of the 'facts' - very little is objective, including statistics about the effects of policies etc, let alone the predicted outcomes. Allegiances are far more about perception than facts, particularly when we have 24 hour access to media of all kinds.

Gagajo As a matter of interest, in what way do you think that we are heading towards a Nazi-esque regime? Do you see us reaching a stage where dissenters are shot, for instance, or that freedoms will be eroded, or that propaganda will criminalise alternative viewpoints (or something else entirely?).

lemongrove Sun 23-Feb-20 20:47:25

We do have a democratic system Gaga and if enough voters had actually wanted Corbyn’s brand of socialism then he would now be sitting in Number ten.
To say we are heading for a Nazi style regime is plainly ridiculous.

Hetty58 Sun 23-Feb-20 20:48:20

I haven't noticed an anti-Labour campaign, just the usual entrenched and ignorant views on both sides. I truly believe that a majority of people have little idea of what they're actually voting for (and the consequences) unfortunately.

lemongrove Sun 23-Feb-20 20:52:02

What a very superior attitude you have there Hetty58 (you’re not Will Self are you?)😱

Anniebach Sun 23-Feb-20 21:13:27

I didn’t vote Labour , not because of the press , I didn’t trust
Corbyn and this was because of what he said, of what he said in the past , I do not want the far left to have power.

Hetty58 Sun 23-Feb-20 21:16:08

lemongrove, I was simply answering 'Do we tend to ignore the true facts?' - and yes, people do!

Hemelbelle Sun 23-Feb-20 21:26:58

Anniebach what about the far right having power?

Anniebach Sun 23-Feb-20 21:40:47

Hemelbelle I would fear the far right as I do the far left, and
I didn’t vote Tory .

Anniebach Sun 23-Feb-20 21:41:46

Talk of a Nazi regime is rubbish sorry

tickingbird Sun 23-Feb-20 21:46:50

Gagajo I fear we are heading back to an extreme right-wing to rival that of the Nazis. Terrifying.

I actually think that’s the most downright stupid, yes stupid thing I’ve read on here. You have often referred to people with certain views (brexiteers for instance) as idiotic. You need to look in the mirror and it’s nonsense such as this that’s actually causing such division in this country. Are you aware of Nazis and their evil? You should try spouting such nonsense to people who survived the horrors of Nazism. To think you’re responsible for teaching young people is shocking.

Anniebach Sun 23-Feb-20 21:52:15

Gagajo you have no faith in the British people ?

Dinahmo Sun 23-Feb-20 22:35:17

Gagajo "Anyone of the middle class or above fear socialism"

What makes you say that? I and all my friends and acquaintances, the majority of whom are or were professional,middle class people do not fear socialism and in the majority are LP or Lib Dem voters.

Some of the discussions and newspaper articles about the selection of the new LP leader have pointed out LP supporters are either middle class, immigrants or young people and usually well educated.

pinkquartz Sun 23-Feb-20 22:47:29

I do know a number of very middle class people who all voted Labour.

My working class friends are most upset st thr current state of the Labour Party and id not vote because of Corbyn
They did not voye Tory either.

Our F{TP voting system is part of the problem. In fact the Torys had a low percentage of votes overall but had enough in the crucial constituencies.

Doodledog Sun 23-Feb-20 22:54:39

I think there have been worrying trends over the past few years, such as people calling one another 'traitors', and support for particular views being seen as 'patriotic' or otherwise.

There has certainly been a rise in hate crimes of various types, and a lot of voicing of the idea that it is a good thing that people can now be as offensive as they like without being stopped by the so-called 'politically correct'.

All of this, in different ways, probably did happen in 30s Germany, but that doesn't mean that we are heading in the same direction, and so far our economy is nothing like that of Germany after WW1.

I think that we should be careful to ensure that history does not repeat itself, particularly as we no longer have the checks and balances that we had in the EU, and are allying ourselves with Trump's America; but I think we are a long way from Nazism, and remain to be convinced that we are living in an extreme right wing regime.

POGS Sun 23-Feb-20 23:42:04

Gagajo

"will never live to see a government which really has the welfare of the people they are supposed to represent at heart. I fear we are heading back to an extreme right-wing to rival that of the Nazis. Terrifying."
-

As a teacher do you teach that extreme opinion to your students. That would in my opinion be terrifying.

aprilrose Mon 24-Feb-20 05:38:43

Some of the discussions and newspaper articles about the selection of the new LP leader have pointed out LP supporters are either middle class, immigrants or young people and usually well educated

I have read this widely too in academic papers and analysis ( they are still anaysing why those of remain mind did not win the referendum and the factors seem to be the same.

There is one additional factor . Urbanism. It seems LP voters are largely living in large central urban or suburban middle class enclaves. They do not live in the country any more than they live in the council estates. It has been said that theLP has lost touch with those voters.

I cannot say why other people voted. I can say that I have in the past voted Labour. I regretted considerably. I didnt realise what I had voted for - yes that was true. So, I informed myself. I did not vote labour because of simple things like inheritance tax and the garden tax . I did not want them taking my hard earned taxes and giving them away to every group who wanted it as a policy of making us all equal. The only person it seemed to me who was going to be unequal in this was me and my family. So I put my family first and their needs came above voting Labour.

I do not want a top heavy government telling me what I can do and essentially what I can think. Theirs is the politics of division and envy in my perception. I was also found their anti semetism very frightening . It smacked more of the national socialist doctrine of pre WW2 to me ( I dont see this as a right wing thing, I see it as coming from extreme left wing socialism).

Oh, add to that I did not like Corbyn and I did not like the LP stance on the EU and the referendum. Leave won that, whether you voted for them or not, to try and take it away in any form is anti democratic. It told me exactly what Labour were.

Champaigne socialists they call them. Yes.

aprilrose Mon 24-Feb-20 05:43:04

As a teacher do you teach that extreme opinion to your students. That would in my opinion be terrifying

Yes, and many of them are the same. I hear it from my child who comes home and tells me every day. I listen and it frightens me. What frightens me more though is how I have to make sure I tell my child never to speak of anything she hears at home to those in school. In her school a young boy who repeated h is family voted leave was accused of hate openly by one teacher and he seemed to become a target of their attention , until they found things to make him seem a " naughty boy". I kow the lad, he isnt naughty at all. He comes from a nice family and he is a polite and decent lad.

Socialism has hit an all time low in this - but then Nazi was socialism wasnt it? National Socialism - any socialism is something to be concerned about I feel.

annep1 Mon 24-Feb-20 07:20:30

I will never live to see a government which really has the welfare of the people they are supposed to represent at heart.
I agree Gagajo. Governments will do the minimum to appear to care but in the UK the attitude of those with power hasn't really changed in hundreds of years.
The disgusting and degrading way people are treated when in need proves it (UC, PIP, bedroom tax)

Tickingbird I do think you could respond in a calmer manner. Incidentally I believe the divisions in this country are caused by some people having so little and others too much.
And I don't care if you think that's stupid.

annep1 Mon 24-Feb-20 07:22:13

Interesting article when you have time

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/26/the-establishment-uncovered-how-power-works-in-britain-elites-stranglehold