Worrying on many levels - M16 say today that China covered up the coronovirus ?

GrannyGravy13, in regard to your post @11:05 today, I believe that those of us who are truly in support of the British workforce, the security of that employment and in seeing better wages and conditions will very much clap their hands and cheer on seeing your thoughts in print.

Sadly it has been the right in the British Labour movement who have refused to accept what you say and which we all know to be correct.

I am also not a Trump fan, but he has kick-started manufacturing in the USA.

President Macron in his speech to the Nation stated that he is putting France first and looking to boost French manufacturing and pharma industries so as not to be so reliant on any other Country/Regime.

Grandad1943 ??

The British are known for triump over adversity.

Whitewavemk2 it is not ^trying to take on China on its own terms* it is rebooting British manufacturing. If a confirmed Conservative like me can see the advantages, I would have thought that those in the Labour Party / Union Movements would be rubbing their hands together at the opportunities on the horizon.

Whitewavemark2 in regard to your post @10:46 today, I would never place myself in the camp of Donald Trump, but on one thing I do one hundred percent agree with him.

In the above, Trump told multinational manufacturers on taking office that if they wish to sell their products in the United States then they would have to produce those products in the United States.

The above with the addition of high tariffs on merchandises imported from China is bringing manufacturers back to America. The foregoing is the reason why Trump retains so much support at present with the electorate in America.

The European Union needs to carry out the similar and then we may begin to see a balance of work and wealth returning globally along with far greater security for western economies.

For the many, not the few.

GrannyGravy13
???

Lord, me and GrannyGravy13 agreeing. How mindsets must have changed due to this lockdown.

Promise you won't tell any of my radical friends that I agreed with you GrannyGravy13. My hard left-wing credentials would be in tatters, I would never to be able to show my face outside the door again. ??

Well they might gg13 but they won’t have the advantage of cheap labour, very little health and safety legislation, help from the government etc. So trying to take China on in its own terms is a non-starter.

Entrepreneurs need to up their game and specialise intl something not produced by China

It has always been said in business circles that the best time to start a new business, providing the research has been done and the product /service is needed is in a recession.

Surely the young (and not so young) entrepreneurs should take advantage now, look at the items we buy from China and start manufacturing them in the U.K. If the OBR figures are correct there should be a large unemployed workforce looking for employment.

This pandemic has highlighted that factory production lines can be retooled, if we have the right mindset we can transform the economy and our reliance on China.

Yes it is MaizieD. I’m not ashamed to fess up when I don’t know something. Probably very naive of me not knowing that, but hey ho.
?

Ooh, formatting's gone to pot

when will I ever learn to use preview

the Chinese government employs upward of a million English-speaking citizens to comment on Anglophone forums

*Wowzer!
I didn’t know that. You learn something every day*

Interesting response,*Ug*.

Is this the first time that you've become aware that countries do this in order to influence citizens of other countries?

I see the right on his forum are content to see Britain and it's entire workforce continue to be sold down the river to the benefit of a few.

Many essential supply companies in the UK are being forced to close down at present not because of the Covid-19 restrictions but due to lack of parts etc coming from China.

However, still the right in the country do not wish to acknowledge just how vulnerable western economies have become to such circumstances.

Money before jobs, security and all else once again.

China is the worlds banker. You simply can’t ignore that fact.

Cheap goods etc are a factor but not the main factor.

Like it or not power is shifting to the Far East. It is a fact that we will all have to learn to live with.

“The world needs China once it begins to come out of lockdown and begin to face the uphill task of mending its economy. China is the only country in the world able to pull the world out of economic slump.
Power is gradually going away from the West and to the Far East and crises such as this speeds phenomena such as that, up.
China is also needed to help with African debt.”

Whitewavemark
I missed this yesterday, for us China produces a massive amount of cheap goods at the expense of poor working conditions and manufacturing jobs in other countries.

In Africa China dominates trade - because the don’t care who they trade with, they will buy resources from any regime or rebel group and pay in arms or whichever corrupt funds they wish. Funding corruption aside they are taking over commerce in every country, walkdown the road in any town or village, Chinese run shops and businesses everywhere replacing local ones, marginalizing locals, they are a very bad influence.

Jane10 Wed 15-Apr-20 20:34:06
"I don't know exactly how China could be held to account."

In global terms, the court of public opinion is very influential. So many Western countries are now looking again at their connections with China. Parliaments and leaders, not just those of us in forums all over the place. Australia has been debating their relationship and trade agreements in Parliament and summarily halting various agreements, France is also having similar debates. The US certainly is.

If this re-evaluation reaches a critical mass then no amount of money or power would help the Chinese government. This would translate to market collapses at a time when their economy is weakest.

Think about it this way: no individuals or governments went to any court to complain about East Germany. Yet, the pressure of world opinion grew to such a point where it was easy-peasy for Berliners to just walk up to the wall and take it apart. Ditto USSR.

China is not all-powerful. They too have millions of anti-regime citizens who'd love to take their walls down and oust their ruling communist party. They're not our overlords by any means! The Chinese economy is flagging. Plus they're very much at risk of further major Covid outbreaks throughout China.
See e.g.
Coronavirus: China’s economy suffers dramatic collapse in January, February in warning to rest of world
from the influential South China Morning Post 16MAR20
www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3075314/coronavirus-caused-dramatic-collapse-chinas-economy-warning

Not sure that the UK's reach is as feeble as one might assume! It was rather astonishing that MI6 should make any comment at all, let alone one that drops thinly veiled hints at nefarious doings amongst China's leaders. It seems to me that alternative/new directions are being discussed behind the scenes. What we heard was a rare and deliberate glimpse into where the West's thinking may be going.

IMHO!

Urmstongran Wed 15-Apr-20 20:32:16

"I wonder if we have any such posters on GN ❓"

I suppose it's a possibility. These PR campaigns target all sorts of forums they consider to be influential in some way.

I've not been here long enough to really work out what's what yet!

BTW, the West does the same thing too. It's all about steering public opinion.

Jane10 Thank you for being realistic. People can be as outraged as they want but there's not a lot they can do about it. I sometimes wonder if people realise how rich and powerful China is or that it's moved on from Mao. The UK is a pawn on the world stage and becoming an increasingly less important one.

I don't know exactly how China could be held to account. I mean is there some sort of world court that's going to fine them or give them some sort of punishment. All that can be done is to heap them with opprobrium and refuse their money and investments in our country. The opprobrium is easy enough but we're afloat on Chinese money.

the Chinese government employs upward of a million English-speaking citizens to comment on Anglophone forums

Wowzer!
I didn’t know that. You learn something every day.

I wonder if we have any such posters on GN ❓

???

Whitewavemark2 Wed 15-Apr-20 15:35:03
You wrote: "suzie we have no longer any choice in the matter. China will be the premier nation within a very few years, and this crises will only help to speed things up,"

I believe that we do have a choice.
Either we continue to condone the Chinese government's appalling lack of human rights , health and safety, environmental destruction, underhanded predatory activities amongst poverty-stricken 3rd world countries and so on - which, given time, they WILL export to us (think about it) - or we decide to stop giving them a free pass and insist on humane, decent standards asap.

Covid 19 has tragically demonstrated that we all live in the same, very connected world. We simply cannot allow a few overweening, self-centred and careless states to inflict their dystopian ideologies and activities on the rest of the world.

Losses and gains either way. There are choices.

PS, it may be interesting to know that the Chinese government employs upward of a million English-speaking citizens to comment on Anglophone forums. I'm guessing that none of them will be agreeing with those of us who want their government to be held accountable! (Accountable, not blamed).

Years ago we had stickers on apples in our supermarkets saying ‘Buy British’ remember?

China doesn’t value it’s own people. They are expendable in the face of Communism.

Recall Mao’s ‘Great Leap Forward’ in the early 50’s? Millions of Chinese rural people died, sacrificed on the altar of Chinese hubris.

I think many Countries will look to more isolationist policies. President Macron is already making statements saying France should look to/after France.

Thanks for pointing out the dates that I missed.

I do think that it will be difficult to ignore China in the future. Many of our cheap clothing is made there and masses of other stuff. I remember a few years ago fireworks being banned in the UK because they were dangerous and also some toys because they didn't meet EU health and safety standards. Also I think that China was one of the countries that used to take shiploads of our refuse for recycling.

it would be good if there could be a global rethink about international trade but I can't see that happening any time soon.

Meryl already done that, along with actually not buying anything new, reuse, recycle and repurpose, climate change has paused, single use plastic though has probably soared causing pollution on an epic scale.
Anyway, off soap box!
Summerlove if China had been honest, that it started in 2019 ( the clue is In The name - Covid 19) and their death rate , then we could have been better prepared .
Anyway Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Chestnut, and the UK is an island. It could have closed its borders.

This isn’t as simple as “it’s all China’s fault”. I’m surprised how many intelligent people seem to think it is.