Attempted murder at Tate Modern

A report on his behaviour found that it was more typical of psychopathy than autism

It can be very difficult to differentiate between ASD and a PD in adolescents and young adults as symptoms of the various cluster types can also be symptoms of ASD. Its why when an older person is seeking a diagnosis of ASD the possibility of a PD is also considered.

Its also possible for someone to be both on the AS and to have a PD. Perhaps that's the case with this young man.

Its not so long ago that to mention ASD and PD's in the same breath would have caused great upset (amongst the parents of those who are on the spectrum) but that's changing and there's plenty of research now being done on possible links between the two.

I find it all fascinating and I often wonder if ASD is a spectrum disorder then is it possible that PD's are also and if so what came first?

News reports state he's been sentenced to a minimum of 15 years. In reality, that possibly does mean life - probably in a secure hospital

That would be the best thing to happen for everyones sake.

I understand, from one of the reports on the media, that he is already in Broadmoor. He is very unlikely to ever get out. He acted with intent to kill, apparently to draw attention to the deficiencies in his care. As he had expressed this intention to his carers who had not reported it to his parents, it appears that he had a point, though an irrational and ultimately tragic, way of proving it.

I'm sick to death of hearing the same old phrase from both professionals and carers of these mentally unstable people who say " they don't pose a threat " .Of course they damn well do if they've hinted about what they aim to do.

EllanVannin - there was never anyone who didn't understand this young man pose a threat. He was a danger to people, hence the very expensive resource he was placed in, with 2 to 1 care at all times. It's beyond awful that this didn't prevent him setting out to murder by throwing someone off a building, which was it seems his stated intent.

My heart goes out to those parents of the little six year old sausage. Every time they have to walk in a room where he is and see their precious boy and be brave and upbeat for him must be heartbreaking in itself. The horrors of that day will never leave his mum.

I could cry just thinking about it.

Maybe it’s time to bring back mental institutions. All this care in the community and one-to-one monitoring must be hugely expensive and yet so many with mental health issues manage to cause untold havoc and mayhem.

Any of us could be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It’s scary to think who is out there in the community, on medication, maybe not complying, at any time. No wonder people are scared to challenge bad behaviour these days and look away.

He should never come out.
He should never have been out in the community. What a farce some of this community care has turned out to be.

Will he go to Broadmoor?

That poor child, the poor family, I think we all feel for them.

this person, the perp, should have been in a secure unit, not in a council flat where he frequently caused fear and distress. he stared in women's windows and sexually harassed them while walking around the block. sometimes naked.
he also assaulted the support workers, often.
and remember these are probably people on minimum wage or little more, while the company who employ them charge the local authority double that rate per hour.
his family could not cope with his destructive and dangerous behaviour. so it fell to the local authority. who passed it on to some contractor, as they have to, now everything is privatised. and two ordinary people with minimum training, almost no support/supervision, low pay, have to try to contain a large powerful totally self-centred individual, who also hits and pushes them around. day and night.

what the guessing, that lessons will be learned.

and the inquiry will probably say the care agency didn't carry out risk assessment, reporting and supervision properly.
and the agency will have ceased trading.

Ah yes, lessons will be learned. Until the next time......

We went from closing mental hospitals, which were good and bad, to care in the community.

The man was allowed 4 hours a day without supervision

welbeck

this person, the perp, should have been in a secure unit, not in a council flat where he frequently caused fear and distress. he stared in women's windows and sexually harassed them while walking around the block. sometimes naked.
he also assaulted the support workers, often.
and remember these are probably people on minimum wage or little more, while the company who employ them charge the local authority double that rate per hour.
his family could not cope with his destructive and dangerous behaviour. so it fell to the local authority. who passed it on to some contractor, as they have to, now everything is privatised. and two ordinary people with minimum training, almost no support/supervision, low pay, have to try to contain a large powerful totally self-centred individual, who also hits and pushes them around. day and night.

Yes, for somebody who has such severe mental health problems he should indeed have been in a secure unit.It’s tragic that people have to commit murders before it happens.

I'm out of date but, my memory is that psychiatrists are reluctant to give a diagnosis of personality disorder until the patient is 18 years old.
It's very difficult to get a secure placement for a person under the age of 18. S25 of the Children Act can be used to place a young person in a Secure Unit if a Judge in the Family Court approves the application. These are often used when the child is considered a danger to themselves or others. I don't know if Bravery had ever been the subject of that kind of order.

He was diagnosed as on the autistic spectrum at 5 years old, which is quite young for the diagnosis. It's a real pity that so many newspaper headlines focus on that diagnosis, rather than the Personality Disorder. It's the PD that makes him dangerous. Many children and adults who fit the ASD diagnosis pose no threat to anyone.

I agree Iam64 but sadly I think the word autism is all a lot of people will see.
My DGS was only 3 when he had a formal diagnosis, but yes, it’s young ( they were spot on though.)
Bravery was a dangerous young man by the accounts I have read and what he did was truly awful, he had a lonely and unhappy life and I question the way things are done ( under any government) regarding teenagers with severe mental health problems.

lemongrove, I share your questions about planning and provision of resources for teenagers with severe mental health problems. 16-17 year olds are in desperation sometimes placed on adult m.h. psychiatric wards. Staff aren't specifically trained in their care needs and inevitably, they are vulnerable in many ways given they're placed with adults.
It has of course worsened with the austerity approach as community services disappear, leaving families struggling to get preventive support to avoid crisis

My heart sank when I saw that this man was flying the autism flag. In a career spent working with adults with autism I found that these people were far more likely to be victims than perpetrators.
This incident was sickening. I can hardly imagine how desperate that poor mother must feel. A nightmare situation.
This man is far more likely to be a frank psychopath than on the autism spectrum. Occasionally, we identified psychopathy while carrying out differential diagnoses and this man was coming out with exactly the sort of thing we used to hear from these individuals. He should most certainly be detained without limit of time.

Jane10, that phrase "flying the autism flag" seems out of place here. So far as reports go, he isn't flying any flag, other than one that blames social services for anything that went wrong in his life.
You're right to say children and adults on the ASD spectrum are more likely to be victimised than offend against others. The significant diagnosis was one of Personality Disorder - I seem to recall emotionally unstable pd. Which is significant and very worrying.
Hes in Broadmoor. His minimum life sentence is 15 years and the Judge expressed the view he was unlikely ever to be released.

He was diagnosed as on the autistic spectrum at 5 years old, which is quite young for the diagnosis. It's a real pity that so many newspaper headlines focus on that diagnosis, rather than the Personality Disorder. It's the PD that makes him dangerous. Many children and adults who fit the ASD diagnosis pose no threat to anyone

I think 5 is a reasonable age for a diagnosis. My son was diagnosed at a much younger age than that but then he was diagnosed by Lorna Wing and Judith Gould who were 'the' people in the world of autism at the time and they clearly knew what they were doing.

And I agree its the PD that makes this person dangerous and one can understand why the mention of ASD and PD in the same sentence can have a terrible effect on some parents even when its just a point of discussion such as - oh I came across this article the other day and it made interesting reading. It doesn't bother me at all though and I really enjoy learning about it but I pick and chose those I discuss it with.

Many children and adults with a diagnosis of ASD pose no threat to others? I have to disagree with you there and say that it's actually most of those with a diagnosis who pose no threat to others.

I don’t think he was ‘flying any flags‘ Jane he was diagnosed as autistic when he was a young child he didn’t just make the diagnosis up you can be diagnosed with more than one mental health problem. He had told people he wanted to kill he told people he wanted to be in hospital and he turned himself over as soon as he did it none of this would be normal behaviour and it amazes me that someone deemed him ok to have four hours a day alone
I think he is in the right place and needs to stay there and my heart goes out to that poor family and little child who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time

I agree Iam64 but sadly I think the word autism is all a lot of people will see

Yes. I agree that the word autism is all that many will see but strangely enough I started to write a post this morning about the person needing 2-1 care because he was dangerous and all I could think about was - Jeez, I hope that doesn't make people think everyone they see out with two carers is dangerous because they're not.

My heart sank when I saw that this man was flying the autism flag

Flying the autism flag?

And you say you worked with those who are on the spectrum?

Exactly BibiSarah - one of our regular woodland/resevoir walks is used by local carers, usually two workers to one person in need of care. The need for two carers doesn't equal danger to others.
This young man was very unusual in the level of risk he posed. It's easy to criticise but I do wonder about the risk assessment that allowed him four unsupervised hours given his aggression towards carers and previously expressed dangerous thoughts.

I do feel we have moved too far away from the much criticised mental hospitals of years ago.

I’m sure there were some very sad cases of people incarcerated in those places who would have posed no threat to the general public, but the institutions were replaced with totally unsuitable alternatives where, as with this dreadful case, extremely dangerous individuals are roaming around amongst us.

Psychiatrists can’t always accurately assess how dangerous a patient is.

2 carers for 1 person must be very expensive for the State. How is this even viable? Even on basic minimum wage. It’s a huge amount of money, then multiply it by the hundreds. Thousands even?