Far left and far right

lemon I don't think I said it wasn't just that people believe some of the recipients deserve it and others don't.

I suppose that's why broad brush statements about left and right make me worry. Johnson is a very different kettle of fish to some who served in Thatchers government, however much I might disagree with their policies. I have said this before but Ken Clarkes approach to Europe is closer to my view of Europe than Corbyns for example.

This government has not acted like a socialist government!!! Anybody who thinks that really doesn't understand the principles of socialism.

Apart from the three million who have been abandoned and the renters who are getting into more debt and will inevitably be evicted when support ends, many thousands of businesses are about to go bankrupt, taking millions of jobs with them.

The "socialist" solution would be to buy up equity in the businesses which could become viable again. The Chancellor has totally ruled that out because Conservatives don't like state ownership. The alternative is massive unemployment. Claiming benefits is about to become a new experience for many, who have never had to rely on benefits before. It's going to be an interesting few years ahead!

And I like Gisela Stewart with Labour. Mind you she voted for Brexit! I liked her common sense views. Plus I liked John Mann (?) who is now in the HoL - another Labour politician - ooh and Brexiteer.

Yes Grandad1943 I agree with your kind comments. We’ve had many a back & forth discussion but you are always invariably polite.

Always important to play the ball not the man.
?

Of course there isn’t a magic money tree ( ever) and we will all be paying for the help given in the future, tax payer money and massive borrowing.....but it can’t be helped as it’s needed, end of story.

do you know how difficult it is to abuse the welfare system? oh trisher we all know that Labour aren’t called ‘the nanny state’ for nothing - witness for example that 61y old granny in the newspapers last week who embezzled the taxpayer’s money for over 20 years claiming she had MS!! parked a wheelchair at her porch. Had a wet room fitted. Defrauded the system to the tune of just shy of one million pounds.

All it would have taken would have been a couple of specialists to assess her ‘needs’.

I have just come back to this thread and I see that Alexa has asked me to explain what is meant by "disaster capitalism" Here is an article written in 2018, ,by which time the theory of how the extremely wealthy can profit from disasters had been around for more than twenty years:-

"In the spring of 1997, shortly before Tony Blair took power, William Rees-Mogg, ex-editor of the Times, leading Eurosceptic, pinstriped self-publicist and father of Jacob, published a book that claimed to see the future of the world. The Sovereign Individual: The Coming Economic Revolution and How to Survive and Prosper in It opened with a quote from Tom Stoppard’s play Arcadia: “The future is disorder.”

For 380 breathless pages, Lord Rees-Mogg and a co-author, James Dale Davidson, an American investment guru and conservative propagandist, predicted that digital technology would make the world hugely more competitive, unequal and unstable. Societies would splinter. Taxes would be evaded. Government would gradually wither away. “By 2010 or thereabouts,” they wrote, welfare states “will simply become unfinanceable”. In such a harsh world, only the most talented, self-reliant, technologically adept person – “the sovereign individual” – would thrive."

www.theguardian.com/books/2018/nov/09/mystic-mogg-jacob-rees-mogg-willam-predicts-brexit-plans

A recent article by Julian Jessop shows how Jacob Rees-Mogg has followed his father's advice and his Somerset Capital company has made a fortune by cashing in on others' misfortune.

The disaster capitalist may start off just as a millionaire, but by moving his funds to offshore tax havens he is in a position to swoop down and scoop up the assets of firms which go bust as a consequence of a disaster, as many surely will as a result of the pandemic. Before long he is no longer a greedy millionaire- he is a billionaire, laughing all the way to the bank.

julianhjessop.com/2020/04/05/disaster-capitalism-revisited-the-case-of-somerset-capital/

Gagajo, where are all the Labour MP's that most you have mentioned would have voted for and who should help situations such as these with the help of local government who are invariably Labour anyway ? 10.34 post this am.

What ARE Labour doing to help their voters ??

lemongrove

Of course there isn’t a magic money tree ( ever) and we will all be paying for the help given in the future, tax payer money and massive borrowing.....but it can’t be helped as it’s needed, end of story.

Agree lemon. And, where would any money come from without the capitalists?

Wealth is created by productive work, not by speculative investment.

Referring back to the OP, I too am nervous about the far left and far right.

Political views have become very polarised in recent times, which is a worrying trend and very divisive because neither are prepared to compromise. They want to be "pure" and stick to their ideologies.

I don't think "hard right" or "hard left" labels are helpful and they have become a way for some of slinging mud at those they disagree with.

As for "scroungers", IMHO the ultra-wealthy who use tax havens and other forms of tax evasion are just as much scroungers as those who cheat on welfare benefits. The difference is that the tax evaders enrich themselves on a much larger scale than welfare benefit cheats.

Ramblingrose22, IMO, tax evaders are much worse than fraudulent benefit claimants. They do it 'legally' and in full view, while being part of the ruling class. We've only got to think of those vile MPs cheering at the denial of the nurses pay rise. Loathsome Rees Mogg, a main culprit. And of course, the sums involved are much higher than all but the most exceptional benefit fraud. They are the ones bankrupting Britain. Not the single mum who does a bit of babysitting on the side.

As for "scroungers", IMHO the ultra-wealthy who use tax havens and other forms of tax evasion are just as much scroungers as those who cheat on welfare benefits. The difference is that the tax evaders enrich themselves on a much larger scale than welfare benefit cheats.

Exactly, Ramblingrose22!

What is more, by putting their money in tax havens they are sucking money out of the economy and putting it to non-productive use.

At least the (very small percentage of) money scammed by the (very small percentage) of 'benefit cheats' is actually being spent into the national economy, helping to support UK businesses. Which is in no way a justification for what they do, but it is not as harmful to the economy as offshoring money.

Oh,I meant to delete the second 'very small percentage'.

Urmstongran She made false claims, she was caught.
Consider the £87 mill denied to disabled claimants
A father died weighing just six stone (38kg) days before he was due to appeal a decision to refuse him benefits.
The late Keith Jones was one of 30,000 former claimants of Disability Living Allowance (DLA) in Wales to be refused Personal Independence Payments (PIP).
BBC Wales News estimates that this represents a cut of at least £87m. Of those who appealed a refusal at tribunal, 75% were successful.

As trisher said She made false claims and was court. I would also add that she was rare enough to be newsworthy.

Urmstongran

^do you know how difficult it is to abuse the welfare system?^ oh trisher we all know that Labour aren’t called ‘the nanny state’ for nothing - witness for example that 61y old granny in the newspapers last week who embezzled the taxpayer’s money for over 20 years claiming she had MS!! parked a wheelchair at her porch. Had a wet room fitted. Defrauded the system to the tune of just shy of one million pounds.

All it would have taken would have been a couple of specialists to assess her ‘needs’.

(a) She's probably one in a million

(b) There aren't sufficient specialists to assess her needs.

In case you haven't seen it, you might like to look at Ken Loach's film "I am Daniel Blake" which is a good indictment of the way in which the welfare state operates now.

The furlough scheme was intended to help those companies who couldn't afford to keep their workers on.

FTSE 100 companies have claimed millions from the scheme, including Associated British Foods (owners of Primark), IAG (owners of British Airways), Next and JD Sports.

Some companies have reduced their executives pay but only 13% have reduced bonuses. Some companies are giving executives shares to replace their reduced salaries.

The above are examples of the current "socialist" govt as Grandad calls it.

Trisher I am one of the fortunate who has no first hand knowledge of the benefit system but I have often dealt with people who have done work for me or for others insisting on cash payment so that benefits are not affected, sometimes fairly substantial sums.
I have not 'dobbed' anyone in as it's not my place but I have not continued to support the black economy once it's known to me.
My logic for the latter is that if I use a bona fide tradesperson that declares their income, they pay income tax and national insurance which pays the benefit of the person using the black economy. If I use the black economy I deprive the bona fide tradesperson of their income and who then pays the benefit.

Meant as question. Who then pays the benefit?

I read that Primark have said that they will not take advantage of Rishi Sunaks £1000 reward for keeping on an employee, because they can afford not to. I was surprised but pleased by this.

The biggest scroungers are the Royal Family who get millions to live in luxury and Queen has millions in off shore accounts.

Grany I wouldn't call draughty old rooms in castles luxury. Not sure about some of the royals but I do feel that our queen has earned every penny. She has worked tirelessly for our country through many trials and tribulations both of state and in her personal life. She is still working at 94 when most of us would have retired 30 years earlier.

Pearldrop50 can you explain how you knew these people were claiming benefits and they weren't just avoiding paying tax?

Trisher Perhaps I should have used quotation marks 'I'd rather have the cash love cos it'll affect my benefit' has been said on quite a few occasions.