Does feminism mean the same now as it did in the 60's and 70's?

To me is absolutely paramount than women have control over their own lives.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Strange woman seemed to enjoy running around after her boss like a blue arsed fly

I was reading about Ghislaine Maxwell. It seems people are "defending" her because she would do anything to please Epstein, even though she is a highly educated, wealthy and powerful woman in her own right.

What is it about the psyche of some women?

growstuff

*Strange woman seemed to enjoy running around after her boss like a blue arsed fly*

I was reading about Ghislaine Maxwell. It seems people are "defending" her because she would do anything to please Epstein, even though she is a highly educated, wealthy and powerful woman in her own right.

What is it about the psyche of some women?

I'm not sure why she's described as powerful. She worked at various times for her father and benefited financially from a family trust fund, no doubt set up with some of the proceeds from the Mirror Group Pension fund. Reportedly £440 million was missing from the fund and 32,000 members deprived of their pensions.

TerriBull makes some good points about office life in the 70' and 80's, just like union meetings for example where some men still assumed because we were there, we'd wash up and brew up.
Several people have commented on the pressure today's young women face. I agree with the points about pornography driving demands that in previous generations could have been seen as unreasonable (I hope that description makes sense).

Why do some women see feminism as "equality plus". All the young women I know are working and looking after children. This lockdown seems to have resulted in the 1950's returning so fares women and child care go, except that they're doing most of the child care whilst working from home. Like growstuff I worked full time , was a single parent (of one child) for a few years then had two more children. Thanks to mat leave, a husband who shared responsibilities and a good child minder we got through. I enjoyed my working life and retirement is good. Equality and having control over my life (thank you TerriBull) has worked for me.

I was in the workplace in the nineties and noughties and the sexual innuendo and power dynamic was still there, I still am in the workplace but in an all female environment so I dont know how much it has changed now.

Galaxy, the nature of my work meant we honestly didn't have that kind of culture. The nature of our work meant we had significant involvement with domestic violence and sexual abuse. I worked with some men to whom I will always feel affection and gratitude. Same for the women of course but given this discussion, and the way some seem to see feminists as 'men haters' maybe its worth stating that.

I think she's described as powerful because she has connections with influential people. I don't know what her relationship with them was/is, but she certainly had the resources to exercise more power than the average person.

I worked in 50/50 environments. Nearly all the worst colleagues I had were women. I don't know whether they felt threatened themselves, whether they felt they had something to prove or what it was.

What is worrying me about the present day is what appears to be the 'girlification' of women.

I thought in the 70s and 80s we tried to bring our children up in as non sexist way was we possibly could. Girls and boys had the same toys and the same opportunities. That seemed to me like a good contribution to feminism from SAHM.

I utterly abhor the current 'pinkification' of everything ( have you tried to buy a 'not pink' birthday card for a woman or girl? They exist, but you have to hunt for them), the separation of toys in shops into 'girls' and 'boys', even to the extent of packaging the same toy in pink for girls and blue for boys. The insistence on little girls being 'princesses' (FFS, why?) etc. This seems to me to be a really retrograde step, though I have heard women defend it as just being another choice available to them. And I wonder if it is regarded as some sort of ironic statement..

But when it gets mixed up with gender identity, with girls being pushed into transitioning because they like doing 'boy things', and vice versa for boys it gives me an entirely new dimension of worry. I feel that the growing apart of the 'gender roles,' when we had tried hard to eliminate them ,is a really dangerous trend.

I think it's actually a pushback against feminism, in the way that there is also a pushback against gay rights, it's very regressive.

I started work just after the Equal Pay Act had been passed, and went into the civil service. I discovered that the boys who joined at the same time, with the same qualifications and on the same grade were given a different job title, and were expected to go on day release to work towards promotion to management grades. Most of them did, whilst the girls stayed in the office and didn't progress beyond supervisory grades pretty much based on length of service. In the 'men's' office 'girly' calendars were commonplace. Not exactly pornographic, but topless and deeply embarrassing to teenage girls who already had to run the gamut of coarse remarks when we went in there to get instructions from the men and boys. In the 'female' office, the only men were the bosses who had private offices at either end, whilst we were in an open plan one that stretched between them.

I left, and ended up going into teaching in HE, where at first, like most people entering HE, I was on short-term and sometimes hourly paid contracts. Back then, this meant that I couldn't join the occupational pension scheme, although I have paid NI for all of my working life of over 40 years. Private pensions did exist, but were far less common than now, and as my income was sporadic and insecure, we had young children, and I was worried that I wouldn't be able to pay for some months of the year, I didn't get an occupational pension until I got a permanent full-time contract at the age of 40. I regret that now, particularly as women who opted not to work when their children were born got NI contributions made for them, in some cases for decades, as they used to be paid until the youngest child was 16. As has been pointed out, those of us who did work often brought up children as well as working, not instead of, and the fact that in many cases it is women who could not afford not to work who have subsidised the pensions of those who could, is (IMO) blatantly unfair.

The vast majority of men in HE have full pensions, and as they are still final salary ones, their higher salaries combine with this to make them significantly better off.

Even in HE, which can seem to be an inclusive environment, the gender pay gap in the place I worked was over 20%. Most people are paid on a scale, so discrimination is not overt, but there are far more men than women on higher level contracts which are negotiated (Vice Chancellors can easily earn hundreds of thousands a year, for instance), and the majority of people on fractional or insecure contracts are still women.

I see feminism as still very important. To me, it is about ensuring that there is fairness at all stages of life, and in all areas. I'm not arguing that only women should get 'time off' for children-related issues, but that parents should be able to respond to crises with children (or elderly parents/sick partners etc). Similarly, caring roles should not be assumed to be 'female' ones, and more men should be encouraged to take part-time contracts at work - whether because of family commitments or to pursue other interests if they can afford to.

Period poverty, the number of unsuccessful rape cases at one extreme, and things like women being expected to wear heels and make-up at work at the other all point to an ongoing need for feminism. In some ways, women seem to conspire against it, though. How many women do we hear saying that it was their daughter (or DIL) who didn't send a (family) card, or isn't keeping the house clean? How many women insist that they would rather work for a man? Or talk about adult women as 'girls' when they wouldn't refer to adult men as 'boys'?

To answer the question - yes, I think that many of the issues have changed since the 70s, but there is still a long way to go before our daughters genuinely have the same life chances as our sons.

Maizie D, I'm with you on the "pinkification" of all things pertaining to girls, my granddaughter I perceive at times, to be have moulded in such an image, not up to me, I keep my thoughts to myself, I just try to counter that occasionally when we are together. I do perceive there are some who really want to turn their female offspring into frou frous. It has to be said that this is driven along by some well known personalities, we've covered a few of them of late, and one thread in particular became a bit heated at times. The desire to have a girl seems to be there for the most fatuous of reasons," at last there is someone to leave my vast handbag collection to" Yes I also hate the "Princess" c**p, even worse if it that happens to be your actual name It is paradoxical that some women collude in their sexualisation, I'm puzzled is this progress? because they are in control, they're not being pimped out, but they're still famous for some highly convoluted and often false version of an extreme version of the female form, an image driven along by male porno fantasies which are often a parody of the female form anyway. Is this progress, I dunno???

Why do some women see feminism as "equality plus".

Because they see “equality” as taking away from men.

^ Is this progress, I dunno??? confused^

It certainly doesn't seem like progress to me. It seems to be attacking the very foundations of feminism.

Interesting, actually, watching the documentary about Princess Ann at 70; now there's a proper princess role model! Nothing girly frilly about her...

But, as I said before, it's the gender straitjacketing that is really worrying me, with its trans ramifications...

Ooops, formatting fail - sorry. Was quoting TerriBull

growstuff when I worked in offices in HR or Secretarial posts in the 70's I found exactly as you did, that some female colleagues made life for the younger women hell. Some of the comments on gransnet confirm those anti women attitudes are still prevalent.
Doodledog thanks for that detail on HE and pensions. I have a close friend who has no pension and I now understand why. despite about 35 years in HE she has no pension and when she became seriously ill and had to retire was in dire financial circumstances.
MaizieD and TerriBull - a bit Yes to the gender specification of toys and clothes . In the 70's I was rather evangelic about non gender specific toys and clothes. I eased up a bit in the 80's when my second pair of children arrived, they had Barbie's ski centre one Christmas but they had other opportunities and toys. they loved dressing up and putting plays on with their group of friends, boys and girls. We have a smashing photograph of them aged 6 - 8 with one boy, now a 6'5" sports teacher wearing a tutu and a cat mask. Happy days. My four year old grandson chose pink wellies with flowers on last year. They have now been passed on to his two year old cousin, a girl. Her older brother spent a year being Elsa from frozen or in his " Moana" dress. Fingers crossed that all is not lost.
I agree with Galaxy though, that there is a push back against feminism and gay rights

Interesting reading about pensions for part timers in HE. It was of course the EU that legislated for part timers to have pension contributions paid for them and the UK adopted it.

Man is still king here in France !

I remember in the 70s being unable to be sterilised without my husband's permission
Not being allowed to have a hire purchase agreement in my name even though I earned my own salary.
The expectation that a woman would be at home with the children and not the father.

I'm a feminist because...

I was told when working for Lloyds bank not to expect promotion, because that was for men as they would have families to support.

I was told that I couldn't be sterilised without my husbands permission at 30. They rethought that position when I said if I got pregnant accidentally, I'd have an abortion (a lie - I don't believe in abortion).

Not being able to report sexual assault, because it virtually never results in a conviction.

As for opinions about feminism. I have always identified as feminist, since I found out from a teacher what it meant, at the age of 11.

I think stay at home mothers are foolish, because they are risking their life and well being. Not for nothing is divorce one of the causes of female poverty. I have several friends who had their lives wrecked by it. At least pole dancers are earning their own money.

Women that say 'I'm not a feminist but...' drive me batty. How do they think they have the rights they do now?

Feminism is about supporting each other as women.

Saying that sahms (stay at home moms) are foolish is not being supportive and judging all marriages by the same slate.

I wouldn't use the word foolish, I would say its risky, and I say that as a woman who left a managerial job after my second child, and now only work part time at a much lower pay. There are consequences to those decisions and I think we should be honest about that.

I don't agree that feminism is about supporting other women just because they are women. To me, it's about being a woman not being a bar to achieving the same as men.

If women are in the fortunate position of being able to choose not to work outside the home, that's up to them. However, I can't honestly say I support them (nor that I don't support them). However, they can't expect the same as women who have worked, often juggling being a parent with a job, nor are they in any position to judge women who have gone down a different route, often not through choice.

A good definition of feminism is the aim of achieving social , economic and political equality between the sexes. That was what I believed in the 70’s when I got involved with the women’s liberation movement.

At that time I’d assumed we were also fighting for equality between races and all so called minority groups. The aim was a fairer society including a fairer distribution of opportunities and wealth.

I’m from Manchester where we had some great role models in the Pankhursts

Iam64 You've explained how I felt and I really don't think that many young women today feel the same way.

Back in the 80s I was a volunteer to Save the Children. When I joined, aged 40, i was the youngest in the branch and most of the other members were 10 to 20 years older than me. As they aged, or became too ill to fund raise, we tried to find younger women to step in. it was impossible. Their idea of volunteering was to raise money to provide whatever was needed for the school (private) that their children attended without any thought for the wider society.

Was tha