Does feminism mean the same now as it did in the 60's and 70's?

Ladymuck .... don’t you think you ARE equal to a man then!? If you have a daughter.... how does your attitude sit with her I wonder. Seriously question...I really would like to know.

In regard to the reluctance of a percentage of women to accept promotion in their employment that involves travel, that we discussed at our local chamber of trade meeting just prior to lockdown following the release of the "glass ceiling report"

There are several owners of businesses attend those meetings who require employees to travel extensively throughout the UK and often remain away from home overnight. In that discussion, several members of that body advised on the difficulty of women employees who although well qualified and having proven abilities for the promotion job roles on offer did not wish to engage in such work due to having to travel.

In the case of our own company, we had such an occurrence early this year when one of our Legal Secretaries expressed a wish to be trained up so as to join one of the Assignment Team's "out on the road". However, as the training was about to begin she advised us that she would be unable to undertake any time away from home due to her "changing domestic situation"

Of course, men often do not wish to spend time travelling away from home but they seem to be a much lower percentage of any workforce.

I trained and worked for many years as a nurse, never a profession that attracted big salaries, however I did note in the 60’s and early ‘70’s whilst the vast majority of student and trained nurses were women, the vast majority of senior posts were held by men. I switched careers when I was forty and nearly fell of my chair when I was asked at interview if I had finished my family and did I think we would ever have equality in employment. I gathered myself and replied to effect that I didn’t think women would ever have equality with men as long as we were the ones that became pregnant. The all male panel looked aghast. I got the job though!

Sorry but the thought of the puzzled expressions at the chamber of trade is making me laugh. What can this mean? It's so tricky.

Galaxy

Sorry but the thought of the puzzled expressions at the chamber of trade is making me laugh. What can this mean? It's so tricky.

Galaxy, who said anything about "puzzled expressions at the chamber of trade".

It was an agenda item that no one was "puzzled" in regard too. It may be that it puzzles you but not anyone at that meeting.

No it was my imagination from your description and the comments you have made about women and promotion, it made me smile.

Galaxy

No it was my imagination from your description and the comments you have made about women and promotion, it made me smile.

Then perhaps Galaxy a better understanding of how life, and especially commercial life, really operates would be of great benefit to you. ?

I seem to be struggling through grandad.

Grandad1943 Sat 01-Aug-20 08:45:19

The situation is somewhat different now, but my company like many find that women often do not take up all the training and promotions offered to them especially if that promotion involves travel and time away from home.

There is nothing employers can do in such situations.

My experience with Lloyds Bank was in the 1980s. I had a child at home and was very ambitious. I was EASILY better than a couple of the boys gang that were promoted. At work earlier. More accurate. Output greater. Promotions were for men because they would support families.

2011. Exactly the same experience in a school. Three women and one man (very young) applied for an internal promotion. All three of us women had much more experience, two of us were vastly better qualified. Man got the job.

In my last British school, there was a mother of FOUR undertaking teacher training. Much time away from home. Unavailable to her family for long evenings and weekends.

I have always been very very willing to undertake training (continuing professional development). The courses I've been on have always been a mix of the sexes.

It does beg the question as to WHY women in your company didn't want to undertake training Grandad? Perhaps the problem wasn't entirely domestic.

Galaxy Sat 01-Aug-20 08:41:55
I agree with the fact that adults can clean up after themselves but in practice that is not what happens, studies still show that it falls to women. Now that may be changing but it is very slow. Again it's not an individual discussion its societal.

I left my first husband in part because he was an adult child (obviously there were also other reasons) who expected me to do ALL the housework. I worked full-time (my choice BUT he also expected my equal financial contribution).

My partner now was the same in both of his marriages. Wife was the domestic. When his second wife left him, he was forced to get to grips with how to keep a house. He recounts it now as a trial by fire.

I agree that an hours work in any occupation is of equal value. Childcare or medical. Business or domestic. It's a Marxist proposition that makes sense to me. Why is my labour worth more than someone doing manual labour? Why is my labour worth less than someone in big business?

While domestic work remains unwaged OR very lowly paid, it will continue to be regarded as women's work. But I for one would never have put myself in the position of being vulnerable to divorce or the death of my partner. We live in a capitalist, patriarchal system. Until equality is total, unfortunately women either play by those rules or risk ending up with very little.

Galaxy

I seem to be struggling through grandad.

Yes "struggling through" I find I can agree with. ?

Grandad1943

Galaxy

No it was my imagination from your description and the comments you have made about women and promotion, it made me smile.

Then perhaps Galaxy a better understanding of how life, and especially commercial life, really operates would be of great benefit to you. ?

Mansplaining 101 - 'perhaps Galaxy a better understanding of how life, and especially commercial life, really operates'.

Grandad1943 do you suppose that the reason some women don't feel they want to travel is because the men in their life don't accept their share of the child minding, or do so begrudgingly?
Did the chamber of trade consider any solutions they could offer to the problem, or to help with this? Or did they all (I wonder if they were all men) just shrug their shoulders and accept the situation?
Did you offer to allow your Legal Secretary to undertake the training at a later date when her domestic problem was resolved?
I don't see a reluctance of female employees to travel or be away from their families overnight by the way, I see women still being expected to shoulder the main responsibility for family and their career suffering because of this.

That's interesting gagajo, I do wonder about divorce rates and the link between women saying 'I am not doing this anymore'. I havent seen any info on the reasons why people divorce, I suppose it's a very difficult issue to unpick.

GagaJo in regard to your post @10:28 today, the extensive and expensive training that was offered to the Legal Secretary within our own company would be undertaken with the view that on completion and obtaining the required qualifications she would then be required to travel extensively in that new job role.

That travel she decided she could not undertake just prior to the commencement of the training. She is still working for our company and remains excellent in the role as one of our Legal Secretaries.

My DD who is a graphic designer, and very highly qualified with a Masters degree, in her first job found she was being aid lower rates than less qualified men (about 25 years ago). She talked to the boss and got a raise, but it still didn't match what the men were getting. Apparently they needed it for mortgages, etc. Eventually she left the company, took a lot of their clients and set up on her own. She's never looked back!

Well that's alright then isn't it Grandad1943 she has obviously learned the level she is permitted to aspire to. Have you offered her the training at a later date?

Grandad, when your secretary referenced a "changing domestic situation" did you support her by enquiring what it was? If it was divorce/separation for example. While I was at university (as a mature student) I went through a divorce AND a nervous breakdown. I was supported through this by the very sympathetic head of course, with assistance of the reallocation of my student loans, cancellation of that years payments and the transfer of my course to a location closer to home. The right support at the right time made it possible for me to continue. I had similar support while undergoing lengthy cancer treatment. An employer that recognised that temporarily, I would not be able to fulfill all of the requirements of my role. Good organisations with good support.

Yes, Galaxy. My ex was a dinosaur when it came to domestic work. I got sick of it. His new wife is happy to do all the housework BUT is not prepared to work. He's not happy that she doesn't financially contribute. And she is now vulnerable, as he has had cancer twice and may not make it to retirement age. He has some pension that she will get but not a lot.

I worked in a bank in the late 70s. Probably 50/50 male/female

The manager was female.

All paid the same. Treated the same.

I was encouraged to move 'higher up' but didn't want to.

I never felt that I was inferior to men

We hear a lot about women doing men's jobs and of course that's great. We need more women pilots, scientists, barristers, judges

However we can't get away from the fact that we don't hear women demanding to be refuse collectors, road labourers, brickies, grave diggers, builders. I could go on. And I'm sure there are some women who do these jobs but they're few and far between.

So it's great to support women but in some areas we don't want to be equal to men

trisher in regard to your post @10:31 today, there is a good mixture of both sexes on our local chamber of trade and the meetings are normally well attended.

In regard to the "glass ceiling" discussion, it was generally felt that any number of reasons can contribute to a higher percentage of women than men not wishing to undertake job roles that involve travel and large amounts of time away from home.

The domestic situation has to be a main consideration with any person thinking of travelling and spending large amounts of time away from home as a major part of their job role.

Oopsminty we had a lovely woman road sweeper here (when there were such things) she loved her job, did it very well, and always chatted to people who said hello.
I think some women would much rather do any of those jobs than work in a care home or other menial job.

The idea that women are aspiring to men's jobs if they become pilots scientists barristers or judges is staggering. This is 2020 not 1920. Some of the best barristers and judges I know are women. Same goes for doctors, remember when children were told boys could be doctors and girls could be nurses.
Yes some women do manual work. Our local FE college has girls and young women doing apprenticeships in many of the jobs you identify as 'male' with women not "demanding" to do them.
We have an army of women in the traditional caring roles but men are beginning to join them. The world is changing for the better in many ways.
I'm shocked that any woman could say "its great to support women but in some areas we don't want to be equal to men"

I believe in a equality. The includes men and women chasing their career path

Grandad if you are struggling with this issue, dh works for a commercial firm, they have women at all levels of senior management, the roles require extensive travel, overnight stays, they also provide consultancy services so perhaps they could offer advise on how it's done. There would be a charge obviously

Advice even. Perhaps I should speak to them about advice on spelling

Mr. S. had a vasectomy in the mid 80's Gagajo and I had to go with him to see the surgeon and sign the consent form; things may have changed though.

Several years ago when in Albania our guide, a retired teacher told us of an Albanian saying; men are the head of the family but women are the neck. They support the head and dictate in which direction the head moves.

I was fortunate in that I didn't go back to work until our youngest started full time education and when I did worked part time. It annoys me if women are denigrated for choosing to be stay at home mums, as if they're letting the 'sisterhood' down for their choice.

I want women to be equal to men in all areas and surely, the whole point of feminism/equality is that if a woman is willing and able to do a job, she shouldn't be denied that opportunity by virtue of her gender.

It's not that long ago in scheme of things, the 1960's I think, that the law concerning divorce saw enormous changes in no small part due to Lord Denning.

Women's rights have come a long way but there's still a long way to go IMO. Earlier this year during a discussion with DS, he didn't believe that in the UK women doctors with the same qualifications as their male colleagues, holding the same position and working the same hours, are paid less.

He googled it to prove me wrong, and proved me right.

Several incidents from the late 60s/early 70s that just wouldn’t happen today, have either appalled my dds or made them hoot with laughter.

One, a job I applied for produced a reply saying, ‘Oops, sorry, but this position isn’t open to women since it involves travelling and even (NB that even!) driving a car!

Two, a job I did get, cabin crew with an airline, had only very recently been open to any married women (if you’d got married while employed you’d had to leave) because your husband wouldn’t like you being away - who would cook his dinners and iron his shirts? (No mention of ahem randy First Officers sticking notes under your hotel room door, saying, ‘My door is open, come and kiss me goodnight.’)

Three, once I did get married and informed my bank of my change of name, they said they ‘needed’ to know my husband’s name and his occupation.
Stuff that! I closed the current a/c and went joint with dh - as it’s been ever since.