Does feminism mean the same now as it did in the 60's and 70's?

Susieq62 I'm not sure what your relationship with your stepson is but if one of my DS's girlfriends made a statement like that I would be having a very sharp word with him. She may be at fault but he certainly played a part. (You don't think she was telling you something about him do you?)
Grandad1943 the trouble with the legislation is that it needs time, money and energy to fight and employers strike at women when they are at their most vulnerable. Check out "Pregnantthenscrewed". Set up by a woman who lost her job in the late stages of pregnancy they state that the number of pregnant women losing their jobs has doubled since 2005. Because they are dismissed whilst pregnant the women face the problem of giving birth, paying the bills and fighting their dismissal, because there is a time limit on that. Not surprisingly most put their baby first and do nothing. Legislation isn't enough to fight sexism. The culture behind it needs to be tackled as well.

The Sex Discrimination Act, which was subsumed by the Equality Act, has existed since 1975. It has certainly made employers more aware of discrimination in the workplace because there are legal consequences, but there have been very few prosecutions compared with the incidence of sexism in the workplace. Sometimes women just don't have the energy or money to fight or don't want to be seen to be causing trouble. Very often the subtle sexism they experience isn't covered by the law.

Also the law is betraying women, look at the thread on rape convictions.

growstuff

The Sex Discrimination Act, which was subsumed by the Equality Act, has existed since 1975. It has certainly made employers more aware of discrimination in the workplace because there are legal consequences, but there have been very few prosecutions compared with the incidence of sexism in the workplace. Sometimes women just don't have the energy or money to fight or don't want to be seen to be causing trouble. Very often the subtle sexism they experience isn't covered by the law.

Lack of safety in the workplace was fought by employees taking their situations to their trade unions and those unions then used the legislation to take offending employers through the courts.

Women who find sex discrimination in their workplaces will have to carry out similar if practices and attitudes are to change in Britain.

Organising in an adequate and strong and legal manner is the key to success in any grievance situation.

You really don't seem to have any idea of the realities of sex discrimination in the workplace. The law does not cover all eventualities and is not the complete answer, nor is organising (presumably via unionisation).

Grandad1943 Could it possibly be then that there are men in the Unions who think that losing their job when pregnant is no big deal? I know there are more women members of Unite now but could the old culture still prevail? And what about those women who can't unionise? Because some of the women in PregnantthenScrewed had high profile management jobs. The question I suppose is is the Equality Act fit for purpose? Or does the time limit imposed discriminate against women who are frequently going through a family crisis when they are dismissed?

growstuff

You really don't seem to have any idea of the realities of sex discrimination in the workplace. The law does not cover all eventualities and is not the complete answer, nor is organising (presumably via unionisation).

How do you see sex discrimination attitudes being changed in the workplace or elsewhere then growstuff? Go tear down a few statues or anonymously throw a brick though your employers window.

Yes, that should get equality a long way, I dont not think.

trisher there is now a higher percentage of women as members of the Unite Union than men. Many have become high ranking full-time organisers and are well aware of all the sex discrimination that takes place in the workplace.

What they require is for women to organise around that prejudice and bring that discrimination to them so action can be taken against employers who practise that bigotry

Grandad1943 I know that I know some of them. But you haven't answered the question. Why isn't it a union agenda to close the loophole being used of the length of time pregnant women have to appeal a dismissal?
Women are organising thanks- hence "Pregnant then Screwed". The employees practising bigotry are from all sectors including charities and law firms. Some of the women are managers or professionals. They are trying to get the law changed but more voices would help.

How dare you say women are not organising. Further up in this thread I have details of the current campaigns run by feminists, issues that I imagine you know little about. Part of the issue of sexism is some men not listening to women and coming in to tell them how to do things when their knowledge is flimsy to say the least.

Grandad1943

growstuff

You really don't seem to have any idea of the realities of sex discrimination in the workplace. The law does not cover all eventualities and is not the complete answer, nor is organising (presumably via unionisation).

How do you see sex discrimination attitudes being changed in the workplace or elsewhere then growstuff? Go tear down a few statues or anonymously throw a brick though your employers window.

Yes, that should get equality a long way, I dont not think.

My my! What a silly comment!

Grandad1943

trisher there is now a higher percentage of women as members of the Unite Union than men. Many have become high ranking full-time organisers and are well aware of all the sex discrimination that takes place in the workplace.

What they require is for women to organise around that prejudice and bring that discrimination to them so action can be taken against employers who practise that bigotry

From Unite's own website:

*Our membership is currently made up of 72% men and
28% women.*

unitetheunion.org/media/2203/8312_genderpaygap_report_finaldigital.pdf

Hmm ... what do facts matter anyway?

Earlier in this discussion, Grandad refers to the difficulty in his business of persuading women to apply for promotion, especially as its likely to involve travelling. So many still assume women will work and do the bulk of child care/domestic duties/care for older relatives etc.

So far as I'm aware, Unite organises within the work force not within the home. To accuse some employers of bigotry as you do Grandad, fails to address the constructs that underpin the way so many women find it difficult to balance the needs of their family with their desire to have a successful career.

Iam64

Earlier in this discussion, Grandad refers to the difficulty in his business of persuading women to apply for promotion, especially as its likely to involve travelling. So many still assume women will work and do the bulk of child care/domestic duties/care for older relatives etc.

So far as I'm aware, Unite organises within the work force not within the home. To accuse some employers of bigotry as you do Grandad, fails to address the constructs that underpin the way so many women find it difficult to balance the needs of their family with their desire to have a successful career.

Iam64, The Unite union organises outside of workplaces by way of it's community branch Structure. It was through that structure that Momentum originally organised and "Dont Leave Organise" (DLO) are currently reforming the left in the Labour party and wider movement.

What better place for women to organise against discrimination both in the workplace and beyond as if this thread is any guide to judge by no other solutions are coming forward.

It is one thing to describe a situation and give examples, but a far greater challenge to come forward with solutions to those problems and situations???

Momentum - I don't have your faith in organisations like Momentum as forces for positive change in society.

Check here for campaigns and how women are organising. pregnantthenscrewed.com/campaigns/

Glorybee

A minor bugbear - when I was younger and regularly ate at friends and friends of friends houses, it always seemed acceptable, even expected, that the man of the house would be ‘allowed’ to just drop off and have a snooze whilst visitors were present, particularly after a meal, whilst the women had the whole responsibility of being the host.

A more modern version of the women leaving the dining table and the men remaining with their port!

Susieq62

What brought home to me recently the fact that we haven’t come as far as I had hoped was the following discussion.
Me to stepson’s girlfriend (who had just got a first class honours degree in business from Newcastle Uni)” so who did you vote for in the European elections.“
“ I voted for the Brexit party”
“ Can I ask why you voted that way?”
“ Because Jason ( boyfriend) told me to!”

I leave that one with you.

Could it be that she wants to keep hold of her boyfriend?

I've no idea what the ration of young women to men is nowadays.

I remember about 20 years ago we used to go to a bar on Fridays immediately after work for a couple of drinks before going home. The young people used to arrive for a night out before we left. The girls were dressed up, hair and make up etc. The young men hadn't bothered. I looked at them wondering how those girls could fancy any of them because I certainly wouldn't have done so if I was their age.

Jillybird Thank you.

I'm pleased with this thread because no one's being bitchy or rude and everybody has had something interesting to say.

Iam64

Momentum - I don't have your faith in organisations like Momentum as forces for positive change in society.

Who said that any organisation supporting women against discrimination in all its forms would have to be in any similar to Momentum.

It was only stated that Momentum originally organised out of the Unite Union Community Branch Structure which provided a great base from which it could start.

growstuff

My mother had a mortgage in her own name in the mid 1970s after she was divorced. I think that rule might have only been for married women.

I was divorced in my mid 20's and Halifax Building Society told me I was their first female to be granted a mortgage. I worked for a merchant bank in the City and my neighbours reported me to the police as a call girl! The police were very apologetic.

It depended on who your mortgage was with some banks and building societies were more elightened than others. Even if the mortgage was in the woman's name they might ask for a male guarantor.

There's an article in today's Sunday Times entitled "They are hunted like birds here: killings of women soar in Turkey.

Lets not forget that femicide is prevalent in many countries around the world which really make our gripes about who makes the tea quite insignificant, that's not to say that I think that women should be doing that task exclusively. Here's a sobering quote from President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey "women are not equal to men and those who do not have children are "deficient" and and "incomplete" Horrifying! I hope the women of Turkey aren't dragged backwards in the way those in Afghanistan and Iran have been. Pictures from the '70s indicate that some of the women from those two countries experienced a more emancipated way of life then they do today.

TerriBull, yes indeed, you are right to compare our experiences with those of women in Turkey under Erdogan. We visited Instanbul pre Erdogan, found it a fascinating, cosmopolitan city. Of course, like any city there were areas of deprivation and real poverty but one of the enjoyable aspects of our five day city visit was the presence of groups of young women and men going abut their lives like young people in any European city.
We were able to wander the city, felt safe and welcome. The arrival or Erdogan had me deciding I was glad to have visited because I wouldn't be returning.
Friends who lived in Iran pre the Islamic revolution have photographs of themselves with friends of various nationalities and faiths/none mixing easily together.

I know TerriBull, that you wouldn't dismiss this thread as being a discussion about who makes the tea. Here in the west, we are fortunate indeed.

Grandad1943

Since 2010 the Equality Act has been in existence which gives the right to anyone who finds discrimination in their lives due to gender, race, religious beliefs, disability, sexual preference and much else to be able to take that discrimination to the courts.

However, it would seem that in today's world persons and groupings would rather place their cases of discrimination on social media rather than through the channels that really can bring justice, equality and through that an end to the intolerance they find in their lives.

By example to the above, Workplace safety has been transformed over the last forty years so that in the present day many return home safe and healthy from their employment who would not have done so in years past. That change was brought about through people using the courts and the legislation brought in to protect workers in their workplaces. Similar to the above should now be happening with gender discrimination but, sadly, that is not the case.

Protest and demonstrations can be effective when it is seen that new legislation is required to bring about change. However, with gender discrimination that comprehensive legislation is already in existence, and women must use it, for nothing else will end the bigotry that many find in their lives.

Your world with no grey area and where you have all the answers must be such a reassuring place to live.

I don’t however understand, as you have all the answers why you are not fighting for all the injustices? Or is it that they don’t affect you so it doesn’t matter?