Day to day experience; racisim as a a part of life for some!

EllanVannin misunderstood not misunderstand, I too need to take more care.

How sad that you all purposely misconstrue my post. If you had an ounce of sense you'd realise what I meant !!

I didnt miscontrue your post, I just don't agree with it. I also don't see any relevance of "if a person is decent, you don't notice their colour!" I think that is a daft statement too, but its not the subject of the article under discussion! It has got nothing to do with the point in the article at all!!

MawB

I remember reading about this instance which, like so many others, beggars belief.
Edward Enninful, the first Black editor-in-chief of the British edition of fashion magazine Vogue, has said he has been subjected to racial profiling more than once. The most recent instance was in July at Vogue owner Conde Nast’s London offices, when a security guard told him he had to use the loading bay to enter the building.

“As a Black man it’s not the first time I’ve been profiled, and it certainly won’t be the last,” Enninful told CNN’s Christiane Amanpour. “It wasn’t an isolated incident.”

“Had I been younger I would have been so upset,” Enninful added. “I wouldn’t be able to say anything, but now I can talk about it. I’ve got the platform to speak about it and I don’t want this to happen to the next generation.”
This sort of thing should not be happening.

We need more people like Edward Enninful to speak out with such eloquence and passion, and we all need to listen and react.
As he put it 'This sort of thing should not be happening'.

Yes Peardrop and more like the footballer in the original article I posted. They have a high profile that they can use. At the same time the experiences of people without that high profile are equally relevant.

Fenella thankyou for sharing your experiences

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EllenVannin this is not about seeing or not seeing beyond a person's colour

I have explained twice. Others have explained. You are not responding to those explanations to have a discussion, you are just following along exactly the same line, without debate or clear explanation.

If you read the original article and responded to the very clear points being made rather than a completely different agenda of "who started the problems..."; "if "they" were all as nice as ..." and "see beyond a persons colour" then this whole problem would not have arisen for you in this thread.

Aside from which someone's colour, is an inherent part of them but again, that is not actually the subject of the article.

A few of us have challenged some comments in this thread.

It would be interesting to hear and discuss views on unconscious racism, sub conscious bias etc as described in the original article.

Madgran77 I am not sure that 'unconscious' racism exists. I know what the popular definition is - tiny slights against someone which are almost automatic. But, deep down, people probably realise that they are racist, even while trying to hide it. (Not everyone tries to hide it, of course). So, if they actually know they are racist, then this makes it conscious. To me, unconscious means being completely unaware of something, like nerve cells sending signals to the brain, for example, and I don't think that racists are completely unaware. They may be uncaring of any hurt engendered, perhaps, but not unaware. I would be interested in your views

That is interesting Fenella. I am going to ponder on that. I do think that unconscious bias exists and one way in which that bias can manifest is through racism.

Madgran77, I was trying to do that.

The language we use to discuss people can be very loaded. There’s a world of difference between saying ‘black people’, which is merely a description of someone in the same way that one might say ‘tall people’ or bald men’, and saying ‘blacks’ which is a racist label. Labelling is a kind of verbal stereotyping, and it sows the seeds of prejudice and discrimination.

Unless one is visually impaired, it’s impossible not to notice skin colour. No one in their right mind would look at, say, the PM or the Queen, and not notice whether or not they are black. You wouldn’t see John Sentamu or Diane Abbott and not notice whether they are black or white. It’s not what you see or notice, it’s the way you process what you see. The roots of racism lie in thinking that goes like this:
- I’m white.
- Most people around me are white.
- Therefore being white is normal.
- Black people are therefore not normal.
- Because they are not normal, I don’t have to:
+ take their needs, wishes or views into account
+ treat them the same way as I treat normal (ie white) people
+ trust them socially, professionally or personally
+ view them as equals.
And the reasoning continues:
... of course, black people can be seen as decent human beings if they conform to a set of values and behaviours that I approve of and consider ‘normal’. If all black people were like [choose your token black person] then colour wouldn’t matter.

I think everyone is racist in some way. Even if we don’t mean to be or want to be. As a ‘white’ person I cannot understand what it is like to live in a society where your skin colour makes you stand out as different.

Times are changing though. At least I hope so. I now live in a part of the country which is home to many difference nationalities, races, religious, etc. When I first moved here I really noticed all these differences. Now I don’t, except in a possibly last Friday when it was so hot, looking at the clothes an Asian woman of my age was wearing and thinking enviously ‘that looks comfortable and cool’

Sitting here giving thought to unconscious racism or being aware of colour. I like to think that I am not racist, I will judge a person on who they are I hope.
BUT just sitting pondering my own attitudes I am probably guilty of positive discrimination. For example if there were two children, one black, one white, I would probably try harder to include the black child because I would be aware that they might feel discriminated against if the interaction was not equal. I think I probably make more effort to be extra pleasant if a black doctor or black shopkeeper are dealing with me. Therefore I am aware of colour, of differences but hope that doesn't make me racist but aware of the treatment suffered by members of the BAME community. Maybe I try to compensate for the racists in our society. I don't know, I'm just musing.
Do other people feel that.
Fenella I'd be interested to know how that admission might make you feel.
I'd also say that I live in a backwater of Wales where the vast majority are white so this may impact on my attitudes. Possibly people living in multicultural areas are less aware of colour than I am.
I hope my post doesn't cause offence, it's not meant to.

Furret 'When I first moved here I really noticed all these differences. Now I don’t'.

Your post confirmed my feeling about noticing black more if most are white, or white more when most are black.

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Peardrop50. For example if there were two children, one black, one white, I would probably try harder to include the black child because I would be aware that they might feel discriminated against if the interaction was not equal. I think I probably make more effort to be extra pleasant if a black doctor or black shopkeeper are dealing with me. Therefore I am aware of colour, of differences but hope that doesn't make me racist but aware of the treatment suffered by members of the BAME community.
No, it doesn't make you racist. The thing is though, you are differentiating between the children, based on your assumption. That too can be a little problematic, for a child. In differentiating, you are, probably without realizing, feeling some pity for the black child, which in a sense, is saying that he/she has a problem, which is the colour. Most children will not notice, but some may. Personally, I prefer respect to pity.
I am a retired teacher, and one headmaster, long ago, did a whole assembly, telling the school how wrong racism was, and how awful to get up and change your seat on a bus if you were sitting next to a black person. I was the only black person in the room, and could see the rest of the staff squirming in embarrassment, and children staring at me. After the assembly I went to the head (in tears) and tried to explain how this made me feel. People had actually done this to me many times on buses! He honestly was surprised and thought the assembly was A Good Idea.
In an ideal world, treating someone differently based on colour would not exist, but I hope you can see my point that any kind of discrimination, positive or negative, can have an unintended consequence.
Thank you for your input, I found your post interesting.
I have name changed for this thread.

Just wanted to add to the bus incidents - I don't mean people changing their seat to sit on an empty seat, I mean changing it to go and sit next to a white person.

Peardrop50

Furret 'When I first moved here I really noticed all these differences. Now I don’t'.

Your post confirmed my feeling about noticing black more if most are white, or white more when most are black.

Actually skin colour was only part of the differences I noticed Peardrop. Clothes (very much so) language (European Asian and African) and oddly enough hair.

Fenella12

Just wanted to add to the bus incidents - I don't mean people changing their seat to sit on an empty seat, I mean changing it to go and sit next to a white person.

That is horrible.

Furret thank you. Yes, it is. I now live in an affluent area, where I have never noticed any racism. I am well dressed, and I believe that people tend to notice the clothes before the colour.

Fenella I think that is interesting ...*The thing is though, you are differentiating between the children, based on your assumption. That too can be a little problematic, for a child. In differentiating, you are, probably without realizing, feeling some pity for the black child, which in a sense, is saying that he/she has a problem, which is the colour.*

The assumption about the child's experience based on their colour is a good point.

Your description of your experience as a child at school is such a telling example of well meant but misguided "help". I dont know how old you were but going to the Headteacher to explain your context as the only black child there was astoundingly brave for a child to do, in my view. I would hope that nowadays a head teacher would talk to that child first (age appropriately) and discuss a way forward to demonstrate to others the reality of their experiences in their situation as a black person. Working with their parents as well, hopefully. In other words not just imposing a white persons view of a black persons experience to give a well meant message!

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