Skin turning blue is racist and needs decolonising.

Reported

In nursing school, this in the 70s, we were always taught how to recognise cyanosis in people with darker skins, grey colour around the mouth, tongue, nails also change colour, skin colour on palms of hands. I have read with interest the charges of racism, and saddened to think that medics are thought to be such, and there has been much research done around this subject, darker skin does not preclude nail changes also. I remember a lady from Jamaica whose skin had become yellow tinged due to jaundice.

Should read change of skin colour on palms of hands.

I’m saddened too Lincslass to read that people believe that our medics are so racist. My daughter is a doctor and I asked her about this when the thread first appeared about a year ago. She said ‘of course’ medics are educated about looking for signs in people of all skin colours, it’s part of their basic training. That’s why I wonder what the real reason may actually be. Someone posted that many people in ethnic minorities are poorer and we know that people who are poor have less good outcomes medically. I would think that is more likely to be nearer to the truth. If medical outcomes could be improved for the poor, it would likely improve outcomes for ethnic minorities.

A large proportion of medical staff are non-white - doctors as well as nurses.

Is it being claimed that these people are neglecting patients of their own colour or that they are too dim to notice that a patient with anaemia may have the blue tinge obscured by a deeper skin colour? Or that they haven't been quick to take on board the same thing that Lincslass was taught, "how to recognise cyanosis in people with darker skins, grey colour around the mouth, tongue, nails also change colour, skin colour on palms of hands."

I doubt very much that anyone thinks our doctors are racists as people. The article this thread is as originally about isn’t saying that at all!!!! And neither are any of the comments I’ve read.

What it IS saying is that the way doctors in this country are trained is to diagnose white people. That’s because the training manuals etc were originally written by white people for white people. That doesn’t make the doctors racist - it makes the teaching materials (that have existed for decades) racist.

All that is happening is that the language around diagnostics are changing to incorporate symptoms that aren’t just indicators in white people.

It’s like diagnosing heart attacks - everyone knows about the tingling left arm etc etc - well now it’s known that women are less likely to have this as a symptom of a heart attack - so unsurprisingly this is now taken into consideration when diagnosing!!

The word blue isn’t being removed as a diagnostic tool - because people with white or pale skin may still turn blue - but there needs to be a way to quickly identify and describe similar symptoms in darker skin so that these people are given adequate medical care.

I really do not understand why this is so controversial!!!

Lolo I’ve just explained that doctors are taught about diagnosing people with different skin colours. My daughter told me about her training and was quite scornful when I quoted what was being suggested on this thread. She was training from 2001 to 2007. Those dates are inclusive of the years she was actually at university/clinical training. Obviously she continued as a foundation doctor and junior doctor after that for a further six years. I think she’s qualified to tell me that medics do learn about different signs and symptoms in people of every skin colour.

It is not adding to the formal training that is controversial, it is the tone of the demands for it - as though there had been a deliberate attack on those who are not white. This is increasingly the tone of campaigners against racial discrimination - "They are all against us"

No, we are not - but we do feel unfairly criticised because the advances we fought for in this country were achieved against a background of a probably 99.9% white population with only a scattered population of black/coloured people. (The US is a different land with a different history and had a vast number of non-whites, most of them working in terrible conditions.)

Maddyone - I do not in any way doubt what your daughter was taught. I was commenting on the content of the original article and why the proposed changes were being championed. Surely having a wider diagnostic tool is better?

Elegran - the system is inherently racist though - and has failed many people with darker skin for a variety of reasons as has been well documented.
Pointing this out and campaigning for change is necessary, just because the tone isn’t comfortable for some…….well that’s white fragility in a nutshell.

Do you think that everyone is more likely to change that training after being accused of being nasty to non-whites or if the approach had been "This may have worked OK in the past but with increased mobility and homogeneity in all countries it is time to formally update it" ?

Would a non-white person be more likely to co-operate if told "Time to do this, it is needed." or "You should have done this already. What kept you? You are being lazy."

But the insinuation that people have been “nasty” is subjective. I didn’t perceive that at all, and that is my subjective view - the same as yours is obviously very different. My perception is that the changes being made were due to a failing system which is shameful in this day and age. It’s not an attack on what was, but a recognition of gaps in the current system that need to be filled. Campaigning for equality isn’t chapping the door and asking nicely, every fight for equality has meant that the minority group (women, LGBTQ, BAME) has made a noise in the press to get their issue out there to ensure people understand and change is made - that’s how modern society has evolved.

Again, I don’t perceive this as being an issue of people being purposefully racist. I don’t have any doubt that the vast majority of health care workers are great people who have done their best for every patient over the years the NHS has existed (especially the past 18 months).

Medics are not racist when they treat their patients. There is another reason why ethnic minorities do less well medically and we need to consider what those reasons may be.
Is it racism that ethnic minorities choose to not get a Covid vaccination? No it’s not, the vaccination is freely available to everyone and everyone has been encouraged and implored to get it, in order to protect themselves and to protect everyone else.
Anti natal care is also available to everyone, regardless of colour. There is another reason that ethnic minorities do less well. It’s far too easy to shout racism and not to look for other reasons. I know racism exists unfortunately, but we need to be a little more proactive in looking for causes rather than just say racism.

Lolo81 Perhaps it needs to be said more often, then, that " I don’t perceive this as being an issue of people being purposefully racist." instead of as so often that this or that is ". . . inherently racist" because being called racist IS being called nasty and the more frequently it is said, the more deeply it goes into the beliefs of those who can't distinguish between, on the one hand, the formal system still being as it was created when a non-white face was a rarity and, on the other, "They are all neglecting non-white people like us and allowing them to die."

Elegran - I do see where you’re coming from in a way, my viewpoint is that it’s not people who work in the system who are being called racist, but the system itself has become racist, hence institutional racism.

Yes, I get that, but does everyone who hears it? I am logical enough and far enough away from the medical profession to see in theory the difference between the system and the individuals within that system. If I still also see the term racism as a slur on those individuals, who care for patients of all colours and personalies with equal dedication, sometimes in the face of discrimination themselves, then how much more they must feel it, as they work at the forefront of care for everyone? Some of the posts on GN about this are from nursing staff.

I am with those who ask just why non-white patients don't get as much out of their medical treatment as white ones do,,and I don't think it is as simple as the diagnostic cards being stacked against them because of racism. In fact, some of the things said about "institutional racism" are likely to put them off using the service - which will make things worse for them. There have already been stories of people refusing vacination because of unfounded rumours of it being somehow a discriminatory plot against them.

Well I can answer that from the perspective of another profession, I work with children with autism, it is fairly clear that due to our lack of understanding on how girls present differently to boys in terms of autism, we can miss girls with autism until they are much older. This does not mean that anyone is accusing me or my team of sexism it means that the existence of sexism in society can contribute to different outcomes for girls, there are other reasons of course. I certainly dont feel 'attacked' by that proposition.

and who would benefit from those rumours, that vaccination is bad. and will affect black people more adversely.
so more of them are likely to get ill or worse, be unable to work.
just think, it's likely to be racists isn't it spreading such rumours.
who benefits if more black people are out of the work force, or are less influential due to illness and disability.
the racists.
also one has to look at historical reasons why black people are suspicious of medical interventions.
there are incidents from as recently as the 1960s where black people have been used, without their consent, for medical trials.
so it's natural that they be wary now.

The concept that black or Asian women suffer less succesful outcomes because of their backgrounds has been shown to be untrue by studies in the US,
Research from the US shows that when Black and Asian women do not have pre-existing medical conditions, have English as their first language and come from middle-class backgrounds, they still have worse outcomes compared with white women from a similar background, she adds. “There’s something more that’s happening there.”
Full article here www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/oct/02/something-has-to-be-done-tackling-the-uks-black-maternal-health-problem

eu.usatoday.com/story/news/2021/02/16/black-history-covid-vaccine-fears-medical-experiments/4358844001/

yes, there is such a resistance to considering that perhaps there is nothing that the black women could do differently to improve their maternity outcomes.
perhaps it is the maternity services that need improvement.
and institutional racism and unconscious bias/stereotyping plays a part.
it will never change if it is not acknowledged.

this article mentions a couple of cases, for illustration;
www.stylist.co.uk/health/black-maternity-scandal/500931