Get back to the office! But why?

PS. I should have said I haven't seen Central London, but I have been to local shops and the market (we don't have a shopping centre).

Yes and it's a terrible tactic as has been proved with the demise of the town centre. Despite numerous schemes and exhortations to save the high street, people continued to use online shopping and out of town retail parks. Telling people they have to do something to support a particular part of the economy just doesnt work.

The Covid crisis has changed the way we organise our lives and much of that we may not wish to reverse even if life is capable of returning to pre-crisis rankings

In that, very many now shop online and that has greatly increased employment in what is a labour intensive industry but not for office typed employment. When anyone orders online for home delivery then what has been the traditional "paperwork" side of the order is completed by the customers themselves in association with the IT system of the online supplier.

However, then the movement of the goods to the distribution centre, the picking and packing of the order(s) along with the loading of the vehicles and the delivery of the order to the home address is labour intensive. You also have the suppliers to the foregoing operation in regard to vehicle servicing, employee training, equipment supply and servicing along with much else.

The above will be a growing large employment offset to the loss of employment in traditional retail outlets and there associated offices and suppliers.

The employment on offer from those online suppliers is often shift work inclusive of weekend and bank holiday working, heavy manual handling and jobs that mean working all hours outside in all weathers summer and winter. Often they are highly skilled jobs but that is with an employees hands rather than all the skill being required in the head and with that work actually having to be carried out within a sited workplace.

That is the future I believe but one where people have to closely collaborate and interact with others in their employment, and one which involves commuting and socialising with others, which is no bad thing in my opinion.

However, will those who feel they wish to have the comfort of an office environment either at home or at a sited workplace change their stance and working life outlook and take up that employment that is already becoming to be on regular offer??????

Some office jobs probably didn't take up a person's full time hours and they could slack off chatting or playing with their phone but nobody minded because they were 'at work'.

There isn't anything I disagree with in your post Grandad, and am guilty of ordering from The Great Satan during the lockdown where previously I would have been shopping in the high street.

I spoke to my son yesterday, and he told me that "they" have had the cheek to furlough staff whilst taking government money, don't know how true that is, I guess you would know. He would also like to get back to the office, albeit in a limited way, but his company aren't encouraging that.

It's all a nightmare for the working world with possibly more lockdowns to come, France and Spain are seeing spikes at the moment.

What this pandemic has also shown us, although I imagine it was common knowledge in certain areas, how sweatshop conditions prevail in some manufacturing and there are those getting richer by the day, whilst simultaneously paying their workforce well under the minimum wage and so that continues it would seem

People will make individual decisions on what work they want to do, what is available and what they need to do to pay the rent and put food on the table - as it has always been. Some of that may be in person in a workplace with others, some may be done at home. A responsible company/employer will set up an out-of-office job as carefully as they will a factory or warehouse, and I imagine that regulations and guidelines will appear, if they are not already in existence.

The safety incident Grandad tells of wasn't caused because someone was working from home, but because her work at home wasn't supported by a framework that took into account that someone should be available at all time, and that she had young children which could possibly prove difficult. She could have been paired with someone else to whom calls were automatically diverted when she couldn't deal with them (and sent to her if her colleague needed to do so) or it could have been ensured that provision was made for the children.

The last few months have seen hurried plans made for keeping up communications and service, and the closure of schools and nurseries has meant many households have had childcare to add to their responsibilities. Future use of home working will be done with more forward planning, and more support systems will have been worked out.

Talk of automatically diverted calls does remind me that there are some things that are probably not available when people are working from home. One of them is a receptionist with a switchboard set up to do sophisticated things with calls.

As for the delays because of those pyramids of choices that drive us round the bend when we try to phone organisations with a lot of departments, and the prospect of sitting for ages with muzak in your ear, interrupted at intervals by "Trying to connect you" and "Your call is important to us" and eulogies about how devoted to serving us they are, that has been a feature of trying to contact companies long before CoVid .

Elegran in regard to your post @10:29 today, I believe if you look back in this thread to my references to the safety incident at the distribution centre you will see that I have not stated that the person working from home whose non-action became the root cause of the incident was a woman.

It was indeed a man who was working from home while his partner was working longer hours than normal in her retail food employment role.

FarNorth

Some office jobs probably didn't take up a person's full time hours and they could slack off chatting or playing with their phone but nobody minded because they were 'at work'.

You never wrote a truer word FarNorth!

My first part time private sector clerical job after DD started school was 20 hours and I found I could do the work in 15 so went to my boss and asked for more jobs to fill my time or a cut in hours/pay. He was pleased at my initiative and increased the hourly rate slightly and gave me the choice of which morning I wanted off!

Fast forward to the public sector full time role where there wasn’t enough work to fill the day - I suggested the same solution and I was told by my manager to ‘keep quiet and look busy’! I lasted a month......?

How many people spend a good part of their day posting on forums when they are at work?

My point way up thread was that presenteeism has never been a driver of good productivity, and even if we went back to Victorian models of open plan offices with the boss sitting in front watching staff work in ‘exam conditions’ it never will.

Grandad I should not have assumed that it was a woman - that was probably because it is still the case that it is women who mostly manage childcare. Perhaps the man was less adept at sorting out their needs than his partner would have been?

I suspect it would be mostly women who would take up the chance to work from home. Further, I suspect that childcare will still be done by a lot of them, in between doing their job. It is up to employers to be aware of this and set up support systems - for men too, and for men to consider the care of their children when taking up work at home.

I don't like the assumption that people are basically lazy. Some may be, but many aren't. I think that working from home is ideal for those with the right home environment.

Of course, it won't suit those who long to escape to a quiet, organised place in order to concentrate.

My daughter has to pretend to go out (small children) move the car around the corner, then creep back to her office part of the garage.

Grandad is quite right in that new jobs will replace those lost. The pandemic has merely accelerated changes that were in the pipeline anyway. The reduction in commuting is welcome in environmental terms.

Grandad your anecdote is not a good argument against home working but for having it better organised than it was during an emergency lockdown when children and parents were restricted to their homes and absolutely no childcare was available.

Fast forward to the public sector full time role where there wasn’t enough work to fill the day
It is not true of most public sector jobs.
I started back to work part-time when youngest DC started school and many a time I had to stay later just to get the work done (there were often very important deadlines).

At least I got time off in lieu which came in useful.

Future use of home working will be done with more forward planning, and more support systems will have been worked out.
Yes, this was a crisis period and arrangements were made hastily, without forward planning in most instances.

Same here Callistemon never enough hours in the day.

The problem with those working from home is where legislation actually stands in that environment.

With a sited workplace it is covered comprehensively under such acts as the Health & Safety at Work Act, the Employment rights act etc. However, while a person is working at home there are many instances coming to light where the above acts have questionable authority.

By example, a worker sets up an office in a spare bedroom at home. In that, is the electrical equipment he/she installs in that environment subject to safety regulations and audit as it would be in a sited workplace.

Further, the employee has a serious fall coming down from that office while carrying a file due to a loose stair fitting. Is the employer liable as they would be in a sited workplace or is this classed as just a domestic accident?

The above examples give cause to believe that employees working from home may be subject to far less in the way of protection and also subject to serious exploitation in terms of employment conditions and hours worked etc.

Already there are test cases in the pipeline to come before the courts, but with the backlog of lawsuits in the judiciary system, no one is aware of when those hearings will begin to be heard.

Grandad, are you able to see any advantages (to the employee or the employer) of having people working from home, or are you determined to come up with hypothetical circumstances where it may be problematic?

Risk assessments may be necessary, but as working from home becomes more usual these will become more commonplace and easier to carry out.

What about the risk of them being injured in the car on the way to the office.
Most of the companies I know provide advice, and assessment on correct seating within the home.
The IT equipment is provided and PAT tested.

I can fully understand why people don't want to go back to their offices.

My main problem is the difficulty I have getting through to places on the phone.

I've given up trying to contact NS&I. I did get through eventually to Santander and spoke to a very nice lady. Her dog barking loudly in the background was a little bit unprofessional though. This maybe ok for now but surely not good long term.

Doodledog

Grandad, are you able to see any advantages (to the employee or the employer) of having people working from home, or are you determined to come up with hypothetical circumstances where it may be problematic?

Risk assessments may be necessary, but as working from home becomes more usual these will become more commonplace and easier to carry out.

I don't think he can. Many people have talked about the cost of commuting and the number of hours spent on travel each week but that has been ignored. He has also ignored the benefits to the individual and their families.

Nobody has suggested that all office workers should always work from home but there are many that can. Methods of employment change all the time. Thank goodness the days of having to sign in in front of the office manager (under exam conditions as mentioned above). There was no signing out when one left so there was no record of time being made up if one arrived late for work in the morning.

The legal position of home workers will doubtless be the subject of a lot of discussion soon. As/when/if home working become more common, parallel legislation to the Health & Safety at Work Act will probably be formulated and passed (a Health & Safety of Those Working at Home Act ? )

I think Grandad mentioned that jobs will be sent abroad but that can work both ways.
My son works from home for companies abroad as he has the special skills that they lack.
Many people who work from home have skills that can't always be replicated if the work is sent abroad.
I apologise to Grandad if it wasn't him who mentioned this.

Dinahmo, in regard to your post @14:55 today, the modern equivalent of signing in or out are "tracker belts" which employees in distribution centres etc place around. their waists when they commence work.

Those trackers are able to show on screens in the operations office where an employee is at any moment while in the warehouse and how long they have been in that same place etc. Paid time can then be deducted for when the employee is using the toilets etc and that time has to be made up at the end of the shift.

Such are the "advantages" of modern working methods.

I have also pointed out in this thread the vulnerabilities of persons working from home. How forum members perceive that is down to them.

My AC has been working from home for years and wouldn’t change now. My other AC is now to work from home when furlough finishes and is happy to do so. This will be the new normal and the Health and Safety at Work Act will have to change to cover this as Elegran says.