Scottish government Covid briefings on the BBC

Wrong. I’d say they’re far from stupid, they’re self-interested.

I too came back from several years abroad and saw the difference. Poorer education, poorer NHS, lack of progress on deprivation, poorer public services, removal of local services. Also more racism and division.

Except when it’s ‘Boris’ everyone’s mate of course.

Crikey, so it's the "too stupid" part of the meme that you subscribe to. Like I said, entirely your prerogative, but I came back to Scotland after several years living abroad and saw huge differences in the country.

We won't agree.

I’d be prepared to consider independence if I thought there was anyone competent in Scotland to administer it. Sadly, I don’t, be they SNP or anyone else. I voted Yes to Devo in 1979 & in the post-1997 Labour landslide Scottish referendum.

Sad to say, Scotland hasn’t lived up to its potential since then, (which no doubt the SNP will blame on Westminster even though Scots abounded in the UK government) and I have no faith that they can administer independence.

Jayt it’s standard practise to refer to countries’ leaders by their surnames.

There are dyed-in-the-wool unionists and there are staunch independence supporters, and for both these groups their views will not be changed by any form of argument or debate. They are entitled to their views, no matter how we disagree with them, or think that their perspectives are skewed. Then there are those in the middle, who decide what their views are on the evidence and facts that are put before them. I believe that’s why its so important to refute all the fake news, and misrepresentations, like Granny23 says. Then people can make up their own minds.

I’ll refute SueDonim’s claims, as Jane10 asked. Not for those at either end of the spectrum, but for those who are open to understanding both sides of the argument.

1) If you don’t like the way that education is run in Scotland, vote for somebody other than the SNP in May. Then vote for someone other than the SNP after independence as well.
2) We can use whatever currency we like. This argument goes back at least 7 years and is designed to make people afraid. Alistair Darling said live on TV in 2014 that Scotland could continue using the pound. Its our currency too, you know.
3) Europeans who live in Scotland have made a commitment to the country and contribute directly to its finances and its cultural environment. Personally, I don’t have any strong feelings either way about Scots-born having the vote. Freedom, come all ye.

I’m astounded that so many people address our First Minister as “Sturgeon”. Disrespectful arrogance personified.

Just read SueDonim's posts and refute those claims. No point in going over the same ground over and over again just as there's no need for FM to read a briefing day after day.

GERS isn't a true picture as anyone with ANY economic knowledge knows.It was devised precisely to make us look bad bu Iain Laing ,it includes all the money spent by WM on things that we wouldn't be spending if Independnet .Like trident and HS2 (and 3) or London crossrail etc etc etc .It also doen't include the money not shown as Scottish income ,taxes , Road tax ,VAT ,inheritance tax,Capital gains tax,Tax from Scottish goods that go through English ports ,and loads of other things .The DEBT is a joke ,we cant borrow ,this is money borrowed by WM and attributed to us .Even without taking oil income into account we would be much better off ,Oil makes us nothing or next to nothing anyway BUT it puts a lot in Englands bank account ,,,they get 90% of the revenue including all the licensing money . World economists have clearly stated that Scotland would be several places ABOVE England in the wealth charts when Independent .I'm sure those who cling to the "glorious empire" though wont see the truth and prefer the too wee too poor too stupid tag .Small independent countrie with the wealth of Scotland do very well on without neighbours who think whats ours is theirs and whats theirs is their own

jane10, THIS George Galloway?

Once again I’d like to ask for just one example of Nicola Sturgeon using the briefings as a party political broadcast. I have asked many times on various platforms, but, as yet, with no response, other than criticisms of her performance in other areas.

I believe there is an estimate that the R value could be as high as 1.7 in parts of england.

I remember well the run up to the 2014 Indy Ref, when I seemed to be the lone voice on Gransnet putting the case for Independence and refuting all the fake news. How times have changed. Now, even on Gransnet, pro Indy posters are in abundance and the Unionists are a minority of 2 or 3. At the last referendum older women were the least likely demographic to vote YES. as I said How times have changed

Hope in the form of what? You come over as rather defensive about independence, which isn’t persuading me of your argument at all.

No, we offer hope for the future. But do feel free to mock that as well, if it makes you happy.

That’s the best that’s on offer? Empty slogans?

Project common sense. Good luck with your slogans though.

Ah Project Fear, you're back! How we've missed you. Well, not really.

Stewaris wrote “Anyone who votes for independence is delusional in my opinion. GERS is running at over 8% - 8.3 or 8.4 I think, our share of the national dates last year was £13b and I think the national debt at the moment is £18b so if you think austerity under the Tories was bad you ain't seen nothing yet. In the 13 years they have been in power they have bot closed the attainment gap in schools, they have not closed the wealth gap and funding for university students means there is a cap on the number of Scottish students universities can enrol. John Swinney should have resigned over the exams fiasco and Jeane Freeman should have resigned over elderly people being sent from hospital into care homes without testing. Nicola Sturgeon is good at spin but that is about all she is good at. However, show me how the economic figures stack up, that it won't affect my pension or increase my taxes any more than it already does and the NHS and education will be properly funded including free university education for all and I will gladly vote for independence. Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen so I'll stick with the status quo until someone can prove the economics will wor.*

???

I agree with most of that although the current system of no fees for university is causing a great deal of difficulty for the universities. They’re being starved of funding and losing out on attracting the best staff. Also, it means that Scotland’s own young people are being denied a place at a Scottish university - 14,000 I believe last year.

Why Nationalists are happy with the second rate education system Scotland now has is also a mystery to me. I was so proud that my dc went through the world class system we had, but what we have now is appalling, as we slide down and down the world rankings.

I’m also interested to know what currency Scotland would be using post-independence.

There are so many unknowns, why can’t the SNP be straight with the population.

Oh, and why not let Scots living elsewhere in the UK have a vote on independence? EU citizens in Scotland can vote on Scottish matters so Scots-born should be allowed to as well.

It’s not very nice to call people delusional stewaris. Its not really a very good argument, is it?
There are several misconceptions and mistakes in your post, so here are my comments:
1. GERS obviously relates to the situation today where Scotland has to exist under the rules of the UK system, an independent Scotland would exist under a completely different system. So GERS is not a good metric to use.
2. I’m not an economist but I think it’s quite unlikely that we have a debt of £13bn when the entire UK debt is £18bn, but maybe someone can help explain that to me?
3. In voting for independence, you don’t vote for the SNP. Once Scotland is independent, people can vote for anyone they like, even the Tories if they want. Scotland was overwhelmingly Tory when I was young. But if you think your fellow Scots will vote for a party you don’t agree with, and you want to prevent that, then that’s a whole different issue.
4. If you think NS is only good at spin, you really haven’t been paying attention.
5. Free education is so ingrained in the Scottish psyche, it will never go. It’s one of the ways we define ourselves.
6. I, and many like me, wouldn’t object to paying more taxes if it meant we lived in a fairer society. That’s why I am proud to pay more tax in Scotland today.

(Tin hat on, waiting for incoming...)

Paddyann update your browser re Shetland and now Orkney.

Similarly there is now a union alliance group seeking voters second vote also to be for the union. George Galloway, a doughty fighter with exceptional verbal skills is leading it. I'd love to see him either at Holyrood or Westminster roasting ineffectual politicians. (Those Big Brother moments must haunt him but I remember being amazed at how he took that American committee to bits vetbally!)

Sorry, work.

Anyone who votes for independence is delusional in my opinion. GERS is running at over 8% - 8.3 or 8.4 I think, our share of the national dates last year was £13b and I think the national debt at the moment is £18b so if you think austerity under the Tories was bad you ain't seen nothing yet. In the 13 years they have been in power they have bot closed the attainment gap in schools, they have not closed the wealth gap and funding for university students means there is a cap on the number of Scottish students universities can enrol. John Swinney should have resigned over the exams fiasco and Jeane Freeman should have resigned over elderly people being sent from hospital into care homes without testing. Nicola Sturgeon is good at spin but that is about all she is good at. However, show me how the economic figures stack up, that it won't affect my pension or increase my taxes any more than it already does and the NHS and education will be properly funded including free university education for all and I will gladly vote for independence. Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen so I'll stick with the status quo until someone can prove the economics will wor.

There has indeed been a lot of talk in the press about an alternative pro-independence party, I think because a lot of people just want to get on with independence, irrespective of anything else. (Not me, by the way. I like the way the SNP can move towards independence and get on with the day job of running the country. And yes, that's a dig )

I've personally not seen anything saying Salmond wants to start his own party, but anything's possible! He's got a lot of personal support and people would vote for a party just because of him. And he is certainly biding his time Urmsongran, waiting for his opportunity.

That's a very subtle way of looking at the whole thing Granny23, and I think you could be on to something there. Our list system up here means its not quite as straightforward as in FPTP elections.

Ah yes Granny23- I saw the media conjectures earlier on in the summer but I had thought that I had missed some further development e.g a direct quote from Alex Salmond . Have I?

I agree that the tactics are designed to muddy the waters and that we already have a good second party supporting independence.

I’m not sure Granny23 ... Alex Salmond is bitter and wants revenge after Nicola Sturgeon’s treatment (and concealments?) about him. He is furious and wants to set the record straight. Many will support him (I think).