Government by Decree

MaizieD

Sorry, but what has this to do with government by decree?

We've had the arguments over the referendum.

Can we look at this very serious threat to our constitution and our democracy?

maizie has it been debated yet?

Apologies for the derailing- as the subject of the OP is so important.

I think it’s much more complicated than the issue of Parliamentary sovereignty. The MPs involved are a patchwork of different interests and motivations but underpinning it all imo is the hard right who want the
needs of the economy to trump everything else.

which is exactly why Parliament has to be able to question their actions.

I think it has everything to do with parliamentary sovereignty.

Once parliament loses the ability to scrutinise, and to override if necessary, the wishes of the government, and the government is enabled to 'rule by decree' (i.e as a dictatorship) then parliamentary sovereignty is lost, possibly for ever. And with it democracy is also lost.

This is utterly serious and terrifying stuff.

If the government were doing what the hard right want, they ( the hard right) wouldn’t be fretting for a vote. They don’t card about parliamentary sovereignty - it’s just a smoke screen. I accept a few do but the leaders of the ‘coup’ not at all.

I agree with you suzie and I find it very worrying. Much as I despise Johnson and his merry band of nodding dogs, I despise the ERG and those who want their "say" even more. They couldn't care less about parliamentary sovereignty. There are some really nasty characters in the HoC, especially amongst the newly elected MPs, although there are some old-timers too, who should never have been allowed anywhere near power in a civilised society.

growstuff

I agree with you suzie and I find it very worrying. Much as I despise Johnson and his merry band of nodding dogs, I despise the ERG and those who want their "say" even more. They couldn't care less about parliamentary sovereignty. There are some really nasty characters in the HoC, especially amongst the newly elected MPs, although there are some old-timers too, who should never have been allowed anywhere near power in a civilised society.

I think there is a contradiction in your argument. Either that or I’m not understanding it for which I apologise?.

What you seem to be suggesting is that Johnson/Cummings are grabbing power without scrutiny, but that the hard right are trying to get it back, and as you despise the hard right you prefer that Johnson carries on retaining power without scrutiny?!

Is that what you are arguing?

WW what I’m saying is that the driving motivation behind the leaders of these ‘champions of parliamentary sovereignty ‘ has absolutely nothing to do with parliamentary sovereignty.

And I think more and more that our system of government is broken beyond repair

Whitewave I think we're between a rock and a hard place.

From an ideological perspective, there are some far nastier characters in the parliamentary Conservative party than Johnson/Cummings. They are UKIP-style entryists, whom Johnson has attempted to appease/buy off.

That doesn't mean I support Johnson one little bit, but the alternative could be much worse.

And, yes, I agree with suzie.

growstuff

Whitewave I think we're between a rock and a hard place.

From an ideological perspective, there are some far nastier characters in the parliamentary Conservative party than Johnson/Cummings. They are UKIP-style entryists, whom Johnson has attempted to appease/buy off.

That doesn't mean I support Johnson one little bit, but the alternative could be much worse.

And suzie

So what I think you are saying is that you are willing to give up some parliamentary sovereignty to prevent a “coup” by the hard right?

I don't think a "coup" by the hard right would result in any retention of parliamentary sovereignty as I think you understand it. That's what I meant by a rock and a hard place. It's also why I sincerely hope the Labour Party gets its act together and doesn't let this lot back in by default.

growstuff

I don't think a "coup" by the hard right would result in any retention of parliamentary sovereignty as I think you understand it. That's what I meant by a rock and a hard place. It's also why I sincerely hope the Labour Party gets its act together and doesn't let this lot back in by default.

No I understand what you are saying as far as sovereignty and the hard right, and the gamble that might need to be taken.

I need to think about that and see what other people might argue.

What I worry about is that once sovereignty is list will it be retrieved?

Lost !

What I worry about is that once sovereignty is list will it be retrieved?

Once sovereignty is lost it is highly likely that Labour won't have a chance to retrieve it because there won't be any more fair and democratic elections and they will never again be the party of government.

I don’t think theres any parliamentary sovereignty( in any meaningful sense of the words) to lose. The FPTP is so fundamentally undemocratic in the first place that the rest is just window dressing. Another democratic deficit we share with the US and the institutionalised minority power of the Senate.

I'm wondering if we are all talking about the same thing. I'd be interested to know what others mean by 'parliamentary sovereignty'.

My idea of parliamentary sovereignty is that parliament I.e. the House of Commons that houses our representatives is the supreme legislative body.

I think how they get there is a different debate

So it follows from there that sovereignty and the democratic process is lost if the government takes any power away from parliament in its ability to be the final arbiter in any legislation.

We had a court rule just a year ago that parliament is sovereign.

So.... doesnt it follow therefore that if the hard right stage a coup it only means that they have taken back control from the government ...... regained sovereignty that parliament has lost.

I don’t think that the hard right has a majority, but I do think that they could make life very difficult for Johnson.

I’m not sure what I am saying.... back to think.

I see it the same as Wwmk2, so won't repeat.

and yes, lots of thinking, and worrying, ahead.

The trouble is that I don't trust them to have any belief in parliamentary sovereignty. Their noses have been put out of joint because they don't agree with the latest Covid restrictions. There's some evidence that the latest announcements aren't as hard as Johnson would have liked because he's given in to pressures on the right.

I'm as concerned as anybody about sovereignty, but I don't think that this lot are the slightest bit interested in that. All they want is to get their own way on this issue - and some others, such as immigration.

It's the same old story that Cameron had to put up with, except this time there are more of them and some of them really are quite sinister.

I'm not bothered about the tories in parliament fighting like rats in a sack (which is basically what they are). What I am concerned about is them putting legislation through parliament which puts the government above the law and the tory MPs voting for it because they either don't understand that the government is subject to parliament, or they want to take upon the government powers of unchallenged, and unchallengeable, legislation to a degree that has not been enjoyed by any government since that of Charles 1. A civil war was fought then to put an end to those powers and Charles was executed.

It's absolutely no good saying that we can vote them out at the next election because we won't have another election if this bill passes unchanged. Once the government has those powers it won't let them go.