Blimey, I agree with Boris...

Jaxjacky

Make apprenticeships more attractive for all parties before we lose the skills of the generation heading for retirement.

Many of the skills of the generation heading for retirement are no longer needed. We need to be flexible enough to recognise new skill requirements.

The higher education system has got out of balance 50% of graduates are not doing graduate work, 3 yrs of their life has been wasted not to mention the thousands in student loans or the disappointment of having their dreams dashed.

If you have a Medical or Engineering degree you have a good chance of a career in that field there are many others you will not and end up doing general admin or low level management. The schools pay far too little attention to the realistic employment prospects of children, all that matters is stats and the number that go to university.

How do you work that out? Schools don't get paid for getting pupils to university. The problem is that parents want their offspring to go to university. Schools have absolutely no say in that. All they do is facilitate the grades which gain pupils places.

Too many parents really don't understand higher education and believe the hype from the universities themselves. Others don't understand that many degrees don't lead automatically to jobs. They just think that going to university is a good think in itself, no matter what the course or which university it is. They also don't know the tricks about getting into the more prestigious universities

Some employers are no better. Some of the leading law and accountancy firms will only consider graduates from a handful of universities. The civil service and some publishers and the media are the same.

Incidentally, doing a non-graduate job for two years isn't all that bad. They learn a business on the shop floor before applying for promotion. After that, not having a degree can hold them back and can shut doors in their face. Some then go on to do a degree anyway as mature students. I've seen that happen to so many of my daughter's former schoolfriends. She's in her late 20s now and has a management job, as do many of her friends who went to university. Most of them started out doing non-graduate jobs, but they caught up very quickly and overtook those who hadn't been to university.

Honestly if those top universities are responsible for the shambles the government is....I'd abolish them all.If just by graduating gets you a top job in my eyes its pretty worthless.As are most of the folk in government who did graduate from them .Its more about how much money you have flung at your education and who your parents know .

I've been employing people for over 40 years and I wouldn't give Johnston or most of his cohorts a tea boys job.They are clearly incapable despite or perhaps because of the Univesity and knowing they could get a job regardless of how useless they were.

I think Rishi can make a good cuppa, paddyanne.
He uses Yorkshire tea.

I think that outside of the education system a lot of the snobbery about 'new' universities is on the way out. After all, 'new' in this context now means 30 years old, which obviously doesn't compare to the ancient universities, but is not that far behind some of the 'plate glass' ones, which I would guess could not be identified as such by most people.

Most of the generation who remembers 'the Poly' in their city will be retired now. In ten years or so virtually no employers will have that memory, and many of them will have come through a 'new' university themselves. I'm not pretending that snobbery will vanish altogether, but it is lessening, I think.

I do agree with whoever it was who said that so-called 'good' degrees are thicker on the ground than they used to be, and that they are not worth what they once were. This is partly because of the fees, which have given rise to a customer/provider dynamic, which puts staff under enormous pressure to award higher grades. A lot of students seem to think that they are buying a degree, and expect to get firsts, never mind upper seconds. If they don't, they blame staff for not teaching them well enough, or the library for not having the book they want when they want it, or a computer for not being working 30 minutes before they were due to hand in an essay.

There is also a lot of pressure on them to get high marks from parents who think that they are paying for their child's education, which, arguably they are not, as the loans are so rarely repaid, and in any case are in the students' names.

This is made worse by the fact that league tables include both the number of 'good' degrees awarded and the satisfaction ratings of students, who in many cases are only going to be satisfied with a first class mark. If courses don't score well on both counts, universities can be ruthless about cutting them.

There is also, of course, the Great Unsaid, which underlies a lot of the discourse around qualifications - the fact that so many more people now have the opportunities that used to be reserved for the few. When only 15% of young people went to university, a degree was a passport to a good job for life. The concept of a 'graduate job' comes from those days. It is in the interests of the people who benefited from that to cling to this privilege and find ways of maintaining their elite status.

Denying that some subjects are worthy of study, and insisting that some institutions are not as good as others* is one way of maintaining differentials that have served them in good stead, as, of course, is the idea that university is 'not for everyone'.

*I have worked in both a 'new' university and a Russell Group one, and have not seen noticeable differences in quality of students or facilities. I realise that this is not a representative sample, but it is lived experience, unlike a lot of comments about the quality of courses that posters have not taken .

Doodledog your post is keeping me from my bed because it has so many interesting points relating to your own experiences of working in universities!
It was I who brought up the subject of awarding higher degrees, and I am glad that you have explained the role that parents play in thinking they can buy an education for their children. In that case, did things start to change dramatically (and go wrong) 25 years ago when those parents themselves were living in a world of promises on education, education, education? In some ways what was promised was delivered, but clearly it has also brought about enormous problems of its own which have spilled into the job market.

I think the rot set in when fees went up to £9k a year. That is serious money, and not many people understand that the debt is not the same as a bank loan.

Was that about ten years ago? I can’t remember now, but that feels about right.

I feel the need to say here that I am not saying that I am against the expansion of HE. I think that fees created the climate of grade inflation, not the number of students who are able to avail themselves of a university education. I think that this should be available to all who want it (and are qualified for it).

Doodledog

I feel the need to say here that I am not saying that I am against the expansion of HE. I think that fees created the climate of grade inflation, not the number of students who are able to avail themselves of a university education. I think that this should be available to all who want it (and are qualified for it).

Maybe a lot of these students naively thought it was possible to buy a brain, not just an education!

No, that’s not fair.

The problem is not with the young people as individuals (and they are not at all stupid, if that’s what you are suggesting).

It is a complex mix of factors. Firstly chances were opened to those who were traditionally denied them, then a price was put on something that used to be free when it was less accessible (and consequently more valuable in terms of earning potential).

Finally, the fact that degrees no longer have the exclusivity that they used to, and therefore the earning power that they used to convey, the logical fallacy that this means that education is wasted on the masses is used to keep them in their place.

I wish people would at least be honest. We can’t have both a meritocratic education system and one in which a degree equals a free pass to the top. If people want to preserve the latter, we can deny the opportunity to 85% of young people like we used to, but stop thinking that this means that those in the best jobs are there because they ‘deserve it’.

If we genuinely want to have equality of opportunity then we need to offer free education to all, on the basis that it is good for both society and individuals, but accept that it won’t, in itself, bring a monetary advantage - that would need to be earned on actual merit.

As it is, young people are getting the worst of both worlds. They struggle without degrees, but are told when they get them that they are a waste of money, or pointless. Is it any wonder that the mental health of so many young people is precarious?

Ok, that was a bit mean and tongue in cheek of me. What I am trying to understand is what expectations do students have these days in terms of where their studies will lead them? Do they have a clear vision, as most did 30+ years ago, or are there almost too many choices available to them?

I think it would be naive for most students to expect a clear trajectory from graduation to a well-paid job for life, just because they have a degree.

That is no longer a guarantee, as a result of widening participation. As I have said, I am comfortable with that, as I believe that a real meritocracy would be far better for everyone, but I think that pretending that a degree is what it used to be in terms of a free pass is disingenuous. It’s not, for the reasons I have outlined. That doesn’t mean that students are less able, or that they don’t work hard - they do. It’s just that anything loses value when its scarcity decreases.

What we do about it depends on what we, as a society, feel about education- is it worth having for its own sake, or is it simply a way of dividing people into either factory fodder or pen pushers? I don’t buy the ‘we can’t afford it’ line either. We absolutely can if we prioritise the future of our young people and the future of an economy which depends on them.

growstuff

A degree in firefighting (which does exist) also requires a high level of skills and knowledge, but it doesn't have the snobbery value - that's the barrier which needs to be broken down. It's taken centuries to build up and won't come down overnight.

Thanks Growstuff. This is the point is was getting at in my OP. I'd like to see a world where everyone can obtain access to the education they seek in order to to achieve the best they can be, whatever their individual talents and abilities.

I do think that university courses should have an eye on the labour market and not simply on what students think they'd like to study in an uninformed way. So a student should be aware of potential job opportunities (or lack of) when making that decision.

There have been some really interesting POVs and well informed posts on here. Many thanks for responding. I think lifelong education is an important issue.

Every civilized country needs a class system. You may not like it but that's life.

Chongolo74

Every civilized country needs a class system. You may not like it but that's life.

Why does every society need a class system?

I tell this inspiring story often about a young man from a working class background most of whom had only ever attended the university of HMPS. The other inspiring aspect he had only ever attended a poorly performing local school. .

He came to spend a Sunday morning with me at the age of 11 and when I realised there was something exceptional about him. At 17. I asked him if he would care to spend the day with me as I was thinking about a visit to Cambridge. "More ways to skin a cat than one"- as the saying goes.

Anyway that visit achieved the appropriate end and awarded a place at Cambridge University. He not only gained his degree, he was named student of the year for the whole of the University, and awarded a prize by the Royal Society who published some of his papers.

While achieving academically, he was also using practical skills collecting spare-parts to repair and renovate bicycles which he sold to other students. By the time he left university with no debt he handed over in excess of £10,000 to his father to invest on his behalf. He told me himself, many of his very clever student contemporaries had no practical skills, so he had made the best of the opportunity it provided for him.

He now enjoys a good solid professional life quite beyond that he ever thought possible.

Davidhs

The higher education system has got out of balance 50% of graduates are not doing graduate work, 3 yrs of their life has been wasted not to mention the thousands in student loans or the disappointment of having their dreams dashed.

If you have a Medical or Engineering degree you have a good chance of a career in that field there are many others you will not and end up doing general admin or low level management. The schools pay far too little attention to the realistic employment prospects of children, all that matters is stats and the number that go to university.

Absolutely agree Davidhs well said.

sparklingsilver28

I tell this inspiring story often about a young man from a working class background most of whom had only ever attended the university of HMPS. The other inspiring aspect he had only ever attended a poorly performing local school. .

He came to spend a Sunday morning with me at the age of 11 and when I realised there was something exceptional about him. At 17. I asked him if he would care to spend the day with me as I was thinking about a visit to Cambridge. "More ways to skin a cat than one"- as the saying goes.

Anyway that visit achieved the appropriate end and awarded a place at Cambridge University. He not only gained his degree, he was named student of the year for the whole of the University, and awarded a prize by the Royal Society who published some of his papers.

While achieving academically, he was also using practical skills collecting spare-parts to repair and renovate bicycles which he sold to other students. By the time he left university with no debt he handed over in excess of £10,000 to his father to invest on his behalf. He told me himself, many of his very clever student contemporaries had no practical skills, so he had made the best of the opportunity it provided for him.

He now enjoys a good solid professional life quite beyond that he ever thought possible.

Well done him! However, if there's supposed to be parity between academic and "vocational" qualifications, what was so special about his going to Cambridge? Wouldn't he have been just as well off being a plumber?

Growstuff - Wouldn't he have been just as well off being a plumber?

Of one thing I am certain, had he chosen to be a plumber he would have done a first-class job.

I am old enough to remember when there were Technical Schools for boys interested in science and engineering; and Grammar Schools for those interested in classics. Followed by Oxford University for classics and Cambridge for science and engineering.

growstuff

sparklingsilver28

I tell this inspiring story often about a young man from a working class background most of whom had only ever attended the university of HMPS. The other inspiring aspect he had only ever attended a poorly performing local school. .

He came to spend a Sunday morning with me at the age of 11 and when I realised there was something exceptional about him. At 17. I asked him if he would care to spend the day with me as I was thinking about a visit to Cambridge. "More ways to skin a cat than one"- as the saying goes.

Anyway that visit achieved the appropriate end and awarded a place at Cambridge University. He not only gained his degree, he was named student of the year for the whole of the University, and awarded a prize by the Royal Society who published some of his papers.

While achieving academically, he was also using practical skills collecting spare-parts to repair and renovate bicycles which he sold to other students. By the time he left university with no debt he handed over in excess of £10,000 to his father to invest on his behalf. He told me himself, many of his very clever student contemporaries had no practical skills, so he had made the best of the opportunity it provided for him.

He now enjoys a good solid professional life quite beyond that he ever thought possible.

Well done him! However, if there's supposed to be parity between academic and "vocational" qualifications, what was so special about his going to Cambridge? Wouldn't he have been just as well off being a plumber?

growstuff Just the sort of nasty comment we can expect from you. Assume you are jealous as you obviously would not survive in such a prestigious university in the unlikely event that you had ever got a place there.

lemongrove

Davidhs

The higher education system has got out of balance 50% of graduates are not doing graduate work, 3 yrs of their life has been wasted not to mention the thousands in student loans or the disappointment of having their dreams dashed.

If you have a Medical or Engineering degree you have a good chance of a career in that field there are many others you will not and end up doing general admin or low level management. The schools pay far too little attention to the realistic employment prospects of children, all that matters is stats and the number that go to university.

Absolutely agree Davidhs well said.

This is down to Tony Blair advocating that 10% of school leavers should go to university despite not having the usual qualifications to do so. Many went to Mickey Mouse universities and got Mickey Mouse degrees in subjects like beauty therapy and were unable to get work.

He told me himself, many of his very clever student contemporaries had no practical skills.
That's not true in my experience. Our family has several physicians and theologians who went to Cambridge and are very skilful at fixing things in the house and the car etc.

I agree with Boris.?