Trump throwing his toys out of the pram

WW2 said: "What is on the ballot paper?"

Ballots vary by county- And by state- They contain local rep choices, state reps and every 4 years presidential- Also judges- As well as local and state issues like local tax or state law like medical marijuana etc.

WW2 said: So it doesn’t feel very democratic to me.

How so? ? A popular vote would be very democratic- What would an alternative be?

Do you vote your representatives directly?

Yes-

Maizie said: I'm not sure of the role of Federal Law in relation to State law, i.e which is supreme?

Federal- Federal law is the the law of the land- But even laws of the land can be brought before the supreme court to be argued that they violate the constitution and as a result people's rights -- because of the way in which the law is worded and the constitution interpreted-

Fennel

First, states have more than a month to count ballots, including the expected surge of mail-in ballots, and conduct recounts if necessary. But states’ electoral votes have to be cast on Dec. 14.

Courts will be mindful of that in refereeing any disputes. During the 2000 election, the U.S. Supreme Court ultimately ended Florida’s vote recount, saying time had run out before electors were set to meet.

When the electors meet, the candidate who gets at least 270 of the 538 electoral votes wins. But what happens if election issues still prevent a winner from being named? The Constitution has an answer.

The 12th Amendment says that in that case, the House of Representatives elects the president and the Senate elects the vice president. The new Congress that enters in January is the one tasked with carrying out the so-called “contingent election.” The president has only been selected this way once, in 1825. The winner was John Quincy Adams.

In a contingent election, House members have to choose among the three people with the most electoral votes. Each state delegation gets one vote, and 26 votes are required to win. In the Senate, the choice is between the top two electoral vote-getters and each senator gets a vote, with 51 votes required to win.

What if that fails and the House hasn’t elected a president by Inauguration Day? Then the 20th Amendment takes over. It says the vice president-elect acts as president until a president is picked. And if there’s no vice president selected by Inauguration Day?

Well, then the Presidential Succession Act applies.

It says that the speaker of the House of Representatives, the Senate president or a Cabinet officer, in that order, would act as president until there’s a president or vice president.

apnews.com/article/what-happens-us-election-contested-fa1f88c9ff0681bd78b147137c09b3d9

The fact is that neither the USA nor the UK could really be described as democracies. They are both sham democracies with twisted, corrupted undemocratic electoral systems.

I just did not dare say this- so thanks for doing it for me.

Looking at the UK from outside, 2 things mean that it is not a true democracy, the First Past the Post System, which alienates a huge proportion of voters- whose vote always ends up automatically in the bin- because of where they live (like mine in a very strong Conservative area- I have votred every single time, out of principle, knowing there was no point apart from said principle)- and the unelected House of Lords, especially the Senior Clergy from one Denomination only which really does not longer represent the people of the country- and inherited places.

Both countries are still democracies, whatever you think about the methodology.

How can it be democratic to have a non elected Chamber, with some places inherited? Or to have representatives in that Chamber that only represent a tiny % of the population, for historical reasons (CofE). It by-passes the democratic process of people electing their leaders and decision/Law makers.

Were you one of the people who voted for Brexit as you didn't like being 'ruled by un-elected civil servants' - when in fact we had elected representatives in Brussels?

I wonder too, if you live in a Constituency where your vote has never ever been counted, due to First Past the Post?

I lived in the County side, just around the corner from a large Council Estate. One of my good friends there was a true blue Conservative, who had bought her Council House. She bitterly complained her vote was totally wasted. And I used to say the same, for totally opposite reasons- as my County agricultural Constituency represented her views, not mine- and had massive majority.

The massive concern now, however- is that this Government is doing everything it can to undermine our Parliamentary Democracy, and by-pass and our elected MPs/representatives.

The U.S. is a constitutional republic-

I think we can say that we were a constitutional democracy, but our government is corrupt and playing havoc with our institutions that have stood the test of time.

So I’m not quite sure how you can describe us at the moment.

Trump is finished. Soon America will wonder how he was allowed to happen. The body language between his wife and him suggests she won't be around for long , a wealthy woman what a book she could write. He is in for a bumpy ride.

Trump is finished. Soon America will wonder how he was allowed to happen. The body language between his wife and him suggests she won't be around for long , a wealthy woman what a book she could write. He is in for a bumpy ride.

I certainly hope so Sparkling.

The house of Lords ia an anomaly in this era when the aristocracy no longer advises and assists the monarch in running the country. However there is a need for a second chamber doing what the Lords is very good at and did very recently with the Internal Market Bill - studying and dissecting proposed bills before they can become law, and throwing them back at the Commons for rethinking and amendments when they find them illegal or unacceptable.

The ruling political party can have (as now) undue influence in the Commons over MPs who are subject to the party whip and can face isolation and deselection if they become disillusioned with their party. They are between the pressures of their conscience which made them choose entering politics at all to serve their country, their constituents who elected them to serve their area, and their leader whose aim may be party partisanship, ideological theory, or personal ambition, rather than the good of the nation.

Here is way-out suggestion for consideration - a second chamber formed of members not elected by area constituency (shock horror) in the same way as MPs, but chosen by demographic sections of the community each from within itself in other divisions.

There are many areas of expertise that could be tapped - legal, scientific, medical, educational, and so on and could contribute their experience to the scrutiny of proposed leghislation. Each major religion could be represented, not just the C of E, so the common moral values of many different traditions would be tapped into.

How to involve as many different views as possible into a second legislative chamber? Any constructive comments on how that could be achieved fairly in practice (it is always much harder to fashion the nuts and bolts than to envisage a theoretically perfect working machine)

It’s a good idea Elegran and ideas for reforming the HOL
Have been around for a good few years now but nothing ever comes of it.
It should be made up of members with no axes to grind who will view all that’s put before them as fairly as possible.
I think the difficulties over the choosing of such people have put off any major reforms though.

There are also the difficulties of keeping the choice from becoming yet another way for people who just want power and kudos from pushing themselves to the front.

FT poll updated today.

No movement from yesterday.

???

Such an interesting thread. and thanks rosecarmel for your input.
I looked up the populations for California etc. At nearly 40 m it's not far off the pop. of England (55m. approx). That's just one state. Texas, Florida and NY not far behind. Out of ?50?
How can we compare the power of the leader of that federal system with our group in the UK.

I agree with your suggestion for a different way of electing the upper chamber Elegran

We would have to work out the details.

For instance, if you are a retired architect who had worked as Professor of Architecture in a University, would you belong to the constituency of retired people, professional people, the education sector or the construction sector?

Could you possibly be given the right to chose?

Breaking News:

Trump appears to have had a shorter haircut and dyed his hair a darker shade of blond.

Apologies for the shallowness of my post but it seemed significant, I know not why.

Don't apologise Calli we can all be a bit shallow.

I also think that Biden has turned slightly orange in the last few days. Is this in response to a focus group indicating that Americans want an orange president?

And spluttered into my

The future's bright, the future's orange to coin a phrase.

It would be very complicated, Varian Some people are active and knowledgable in many spheres. I don't know how it could be achieved, but I am aware that there are many with the wish to contribute something to the community, (perhaps they have retired but still have much to offer) The habit of giving people life peerages when they retired from high political office was a step theoretically in that direction, but political experience is not the only thing needed in a second chamber, people of integrity with experience in all kinds of fields could use it for the good of the nation. But how to select them? how to define the qualities needed? and how to measure their integrity and their disinterestedness in profit and power? Who would choose? Their peers in their professions/spheres? An outside body? Who could comprise the outside body?

In so many words during a rally in the state of Pennsylvania, the president said his son had the virus but that 15 minutes later it was gone-

And several Trump rally goers in the state of Nebraska had to be hospitalized for exposure to the cold-