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Where are Starmer's famous human rights' beliefs?

(30 Posts)
trisher Thu 15-Oct-20 13:34:17

So LP MPs are to abstain over the so called "Spy cops" bill. One member of the shadow cabinet has resigned over the issue. Starmer is apparently meeting MPs who might be a bit wobbly in person. But why? Shouldn't he be speaking out loudly about this legislation which effectively gives under cover officers the right to murder or assault anyone without any fear of punishment. Those who have been blacklisted and spied on for their activities are seriously worried.

Grany Thu 15-Oct-20 13:57:00

This is serious

The #SpyCopsBill could put undercover police officers and security agents above the law, granting a range of state agencies the power to licence agents and officers to commit grave crimes.

Now is the time to stand up for human rights and civil liberties.


Grany Thu 15-Oct-20 14:02:03

Dan Carden Resigns from Labour Frontbench over CHIS Bill

Bodach Thu 15-Oct-20 14:24:55

"...this legislation which effectively gives under cover officers the right to murder or assault anyone without any fear of punishment."

Absolute rubbish. That flagrantly alarmist and rabble-rousing statement takes no account of the safeguards and limitations proposed, including oversight which takes account of the requirements of the Human Rights Act.
The brave men and women of the police, security, intelligence, and armed forces who undertake these particularly hazardous duties on our behalf need the clarity and protection that this legislation would provide.

Riverwalk Thu 15-Oct-20 14:42:15

I can see that there could be some awful situation whereby an agent would have to commit a terrible crime in order not to have cover blown, but I can see no reason why he couldn't get out of having sex with an unknowing woman.

LauraNorder Thu 15-Oct-20 14:49:00

Absolutely spot on Bodach.

trisher Thu 15-Oct-20 15:06:09

Bodach the discussion on the radio said that the Human Rights act would not be applicable to any case of this kind.

JenniferEccles Thu 15-Oct-20 16:08:54

You are completely right of course Bodach but that won’t stop the howls from those who seem to delight in finding something new to be outraged at.

‘Murdering undercover police officers’ !

You couldn’t make it up !

Jaberwok Thu 15-Oct-20 16:35:31

I do so agree with Bodach and others. These undercover police officers are often infiltrating extremely dangerous organisations and if they're even suspected of being the authorities will be murdered often hideously without compunction. In order to protect the public and the state these extremely brave men and women may have to go along with, and perhaps join in henious crimes to bring these people to justice. Even sex, you can't appear to be different without drawing attention to yourself. Try not to have children though!!

EllanVannin Thu 15-Oct-20 16:42:37

Starmer doesn't do Human Rights--remember the Rochdale grooming ? He who ignored that it was happening. ?

Grany Thu 15-Oct-20 16:42:39

Dan Cardenas said
resignation letter

On this occasion I am resolute that as a matter of conscience I must use my voice and my vote on behalf of my constituents to object to legislation that sets dangerous new precedents on the rule of law and civil liberties in this country.

Jaberwok Thu 15-Oct-20 17:01:13

He's entitled to.his opinion ! But how can an undercover agent infiltrate and help bring to justice organisations such as drug running, illegal arms dealers and other planned atrocities without being a convincing part of the gang? You can't always plead a cold, or forget your car keys without drawing attention! You could pretend to be gay I suppose, but my goodness, that could be seriously tricky!!

trisher Thu 15-Oct-20 17:04:18

There were murders commited by undercover army officers in N Ireland.
And it isn't just police officers who willbe able to commit crimes It would allow public authorities, ranging from police and MI5 to HMRC and the Food Standards Agency, to authorise agents and informants to commit crimes while undercover.

GrannyGravy13 Thu 15-Oct-20 17:17:09

If an undercover agent has to commit a crime when infiltrating a terrorist organisation and in doing so saves many innocent lives, that’s a job well done!

Jaberwok Thu 15-Oct-20 17:22:23

So what's the answer? You're not going to get many people to become undercover agents if, at the end of an extremely dangerous assignment they run the risk of being prosecuted either by the people who sent them or the criminals they've brought to justice! Who on earth would want to work in that sort of atmosphere?!

Jaberwok Thu 15-Oct-20 17:29:17

To right GrannyGravy13! Infiltrating the IRA and other terrorist groups saved many innocent lives during the troubles, probably still are. Being murdered yourself is an occupational hazard when you're planning the mass murder of innocent civilians at communal gatherings!

MerylStreep Thu 15-Oct-20 17:37:15

If you really want to understand how, watch a programme on i player called The Mole
The most amazing story of how a young Danish man infiltrated North Korea to expose the illegal arms trade and other illegalities. Truly amazing.

Ilovecheese Thu 15-Oct-20 18:21:03

What EllanVannin posted about Keir Starmer is not true.

trisher Thu 15-Oct-20 18:26:48

The shootings in N Ireland were not necessarily of IRA members (and even if they were do we just dish out justice ad hoc with no defence and no possibility of innocence?) Anyone associted with them was fair game- check out Pat Finucane a lawyer murdered in front of his family with the collusion of British army agents.

Grany Thu 15-Oct-20 19:10:28

BREAKING: 34 Labour MPs rebelled and voted against the #CHISBill

Jaberwok Thu 15-Oct-20 19:31:35

Thank you MerylStreep. I will certainly watch The Mole, it sounds fascinating and will while away a lock down afternoon perfectly!

trisher Thu 15-Oct-20 19:54:20

The idea that undercover police are onlyinvolved in operations which threaten our lives or society is totally wrong. What dangers did the supporters of Stehen Lawrence's family, or the Hillsborough supporters present? Both were infiltrated.

Bodach Thu 15-Oct-20 23:37:19

"What dangers did the supporters of Stehen Lawrence's family, or the Hillsborough supporters present? Both were infiltrated."
What's that got to do with this legislation, which is specifically dealing with cases where the undercover operatives may have to go along with committing crimes in order to maintain their cover?

Grany Fri 16-Oct-20 09:30:01

Starmer looses 8 from his team and not a whisper from the media

Grany Fri 16-Oct-20 09:50:06

Clive Lewis gives his reasons on FB to abstain vote bill down.

The 'Spycops' bill undermines the rule of law and gives a green light to serious crimes