Who will be left in the Labour Party?

Thanks Dinahmo for summarising the correctly the reason Starmer advised the LP to abstain.

biba70 - we're in agreement about the left undermining Starmer from day 1. It doesn't matter what he does, they won't support him. Corbyn as we know, never supported any Leader in 40 years as a bank bencher. When he was leader, the expectation was everyone backed him even when the party lost general, local and European elections during his leadership.

If anyone doubts the abuse being expressed by Momentum, by many Corbyn supporters towards any Jewish MP, towards Starmer just look at their comments on facebook or any other social media site. Absolutely horrific and inexcusable. The 'enemy' is Starmer, not the tories. These people will condemn us to conservatives in power, rather than support Starmer. I've been impressed by Angela Raynor.

Urmstongran

Thank you for explaining that to me Dinahmo - much more insightful & educational than telling me ‘it’s about time I learned’ something.

I didn't bother to explain that bit because I thought it was obvious to anyone who appears to pride themself on their political nous...

It's still time you learned something about an MP's role in relation to their constituents...

Two of my friends, living in Emily Thornberry's constituency, are longstanding members of the LP. My friend has described on many occasions the behaviour of Momentum supporters at branch meetings which they tried to take over completely and were rude and aggressive to long standing members.

More recently I think, from what she's told me, the longer established members pf that particular CLP are gradually regaining control.

Maizie I have to confess that I was listening to James O'Brien this morning and several of his callers had problems understanding the concept of abstention.

Dinahmo, the various Labour facebook groups reflect exactly what your friend who lives in Emily Thornberry's constituency reports. Momentum types try to dominate any discussion with their ridiculous views on Starmer (bad, zionist, tory, etc) and Corbyn ( walks on water, a true kind,, gentle socialist done down by the rwmsm).
This morning, a Labour councillor in London is reported to have been suspended for anti semitic posts. He excuses this by stating the posts were made before he joined the Labour Party.
Angela Raynor is right I fear, these people must either go off and form their own party like Respect/SWP/IMG or be chucked out

biba70 regarding your post at 20:00 yesterday, you state that the left in the Labour Party has been undermining Kier Starmer since his election as leader. It was in fact that when first elected Starmer was supported by virtually all in the party and trade unions due to his election commitment to bring unity to the party.

However, since becoming leader Starmer has demonstrated that he leads only for the right in the party and has now removed all with left views from major positions of influence. He is now carrying out what seems to be a personal campaign of detriment against Jeremy Corbyn and in that acting as a personal dictator by not allowing any disruption on the issue within the party.

You also seem to be forgetting that bibba70 that the right in the Labour Party carried out a four year very extensive undermining campaign against Corbyn when he was leader even to the extent of working to prevent a General Election victory under his leadership in 2018.

The above, I believe makes any future unity in the Labour Party impossible and the sooner it splits into two completely separate contingents and parties of the left the better it will be for all in the Labour movement and the British electorate.

Who will be left in this present Labour Party? Possibly a few of the present right in the movement who always look as though they would be more comfortable in the Tory party. However, I would hope within a few years it would sink quietly into the realms of political history.

Apologise, should be "discussion in my above post, not "disruption".

Oh I see we are into GBH territory again. I find the threats really boring to be honest.

The election you refer to was 2017. By 2019, the Corbyn team had replaced these people so that loss was down to the new team. I campaigned in both elections and, without doubt, Corbyn, in 2019, was the main reason people did not want to vote Labour. Keir did attract voters from right across the spectrum of the Party but you will always get a faction that is only happy with the one they wanted. I find it interesting, as I browse the voting record of certain MPs, how many of the firm Corbyn supporters are now coming round to supporting Keir. Only they can decide whether it is because they see him as a good 'winning' leader or because of their own career ambitions in the Party and Parliament.
Iam64 and Dínahmo, good posts re behaviour in the local parties which I agree with.
Keir was right to abstain because you cannot vote against the health of the nation but you can, by abstaining, encourage the PM to do better. IMO the Labour MPs who voted against voted against the health of the nation and weakened the rebellion by Boris' own Party.

Please could anyone enligheten me on how they know for any degree of certainty that the posts they read on social media are made by people who are genuine members of Momentum or of the Labour Party? Or is it just preconception and prejudice on your part?
Devorogrilla but it isn't any use MPs supporting Starmer if the grassroots LP doesn't. He has by his own actions and lack of actions made himself vastly unpopular. The idea that it is only the left who are upset by the his undemocratic actions is wrong. Look at the list of CLPs who ignored hs instruction they should not discuss Corbyn's suspension many of them were his supporters when he became leader. He can't keep blamng the left for his own mistakes.

Devorgilla, the 2019 election was all about Brexit and very little else. The slogan "get Brexit done" was key to the ballot and played excellent for the Conservatives. Very many people just wanted to get Brexit over one way or another and the Labour Party could not put out a strong single message due to it's Brexit prone supporters in the north being divided against the Labour pro Europe supporters in the south. It was as simple as that.

However, the divide did demonstrate that Labour was trying to be "to broad a church", and that many feel is the very base of the argument that the party should split.

Good post Devorgilla.

Labour abstaining last night exposed that the Tories are bitterly divided - not just the Labour Party!

Going back to the OP re who will be left in the Labour Party, it will hopefully be members who support the values and rules of the party. That means people who are not racists and not anti-semites.

I may be missing something but why would any member of the Labour Party want their party to have members who are anti-semitic?

Ramblingrose22 no one wants racists or antisemites but do you really believe there are 'thousands' of them in the LP? If so given that the LP is the party which attracts people who believe in equality and freedom how many more must there be in right wing parties?
If there are antisemites in the LP they should be dealt with properly and through due process, and the Leader's office and Angela Rayner should take no part in it as the EHRC report advised.

?
“Sir @Keir_Starmer personally wrote to David Abrahams asking wether he would consider donating to the party”. t.co/rYMvqcLNZF pic.twitter.com/VLJWKUJYaS

— James Foster (@JamesEFoster) December 1, 2020

“Self-hating Jew” (or Jews), according to the Urban Dictionary, is the derogatory code phrase for Jewish people “who speak out against the actions or policies of the government of Israel, Zionists or other Jewish controlled organizations”.

It is not a description of people who actually hate themselves because they are Jewish.

It is an attack on Jewish people who hold different political views from Jews who do support the actions and policies of the government of Israel, Zionists and other Jewish-controlled organisations (that, I would add for the sake of clarity, also support the Israeli government and the kind of Zionism it professes).

It is also clearly anti-Semitic, because it attacks what these people are, and claims that they are not what they should be.

What does it say about Keir Starmer that this is the kind of person the new New Labour leader approaches to fund his party, now that the membership is dwindling down to him, Angela Rayner and Luke Akehurst?

I much preferred the Labour Party when it was funded by its mass membership. It thrived on people power & we didn’t need the likes of rich racists such as David Abraham’s.

Nothing positive will come from this. pic.twitter.com/qVqo5THSUq

— Ben (@BenJolly9) December 1, 2020

And Labour’s record proves it is happy to smear as anti-Semites Jews who don’t support the pro-Israel, aggressive-Zionist pose that Starmer has been pushing.

So will he hand back the cash?

And if he does, how will he keep Labour’s finances from falling apart?

Trisher - I haven't seen figures for how many anti-semites there are in the Labour party so I am not in a position to believe that there are thousands of them or just one. If you know the real figures please share them on here, quoting your sources.

Grany - at least Trisher has addressed my question. All you have done instead is to give a personal opinion on what or who is anti-semitic and what or who isn't, as if you are some kind of expert on this. Plus another criticism of Keir Starmer thrown in, as usual.

As for the Urban Dictionary, are you aware that it has been criticized for hosting and failing to remove offensive submissions, including some containing racist and sexist content. Anyone can submit a definition. Here is an example:

feminist : someone who believes the radical notion that women are people.

This shows how little quality control there is and that it is hardly worth taking seriously.

Please try to post stuff that is rational and not based on gossip, prejudice, disreputable sources and what you see on social media.

trisher

Ramblingrose22 no one wants racists or antisemites but do you really believe there are 'thousands' of them in the LP? If so given that the LP is the party which attracts people who believe in equality and freedom how many more must there be in right wing parties?
If there are antisemites in the LP they should be dealt with properly and through due process, and the Leader's office and Angela Rayner should take no part in it as the EHRC report advised.

No I do not. Many are anti-zionist and against the cruel Israeli destructions of Palestine and its people.

I am absolutely sure that there are however, large numbers of islamophobics in the Conservative party- the reason why they will not complete or publish the promised independent research.

biba70 - I'm sure you are right that there are many Islamaphobics in the Tory Party.

Can I check with you what "anti-zionism" means, please?

All I can say to Labour Party members is please do not complain when /if the Conservatives are re-elected due to Labour infighting making them unelectable.

Grany

Both Starmer and Rayner in videos supported and defended Corbyn against media claims of AS Now they are doing the exact opposite Is it anything to do with their support of friends of Israel ?

The wrong type of Jew

m.youtube.com/watch?v=SjhHhL_15Nw

This woman speaks such truth

On Palistine commemoration day they KS and AR were at Friends of Israel meeting.

Ramblingrose22 if you want
to understand the term "self hating Jew" I suggest you watch the woman in Grany's link.

We NEED a creditable opposition party. It’s good for checks & balances.
This isn’t it.
All this in-fighting needs to get sorted PDQ or the Tory victory will be a walkover.

Totally agree Urmstongran not another opposition leader with a derrière full of splinters!!!!

Trisher - I don't think I asked what the term "self-hating Jew" means but I'm sure you can tell me in a few lines. Why would you expect me to look it up in the discredited Urban Dictionary or to watch an 11-minute speech. I doubt if it's such a complicated term that it needs 11 minutes to be explained

I hope you can also tell me what the relevance of the "self-hating Jew" is to the issue in the OP "Who will be left in the Labour Party?"

Urmstongran

We NEED a creditable opposition party. It’s good for checks & balances.
This isn’t it.
All this in-fighting needs to get sorted PDQ or the Tory victory will be a walkover.

There is in the planning a special TUC conference to take place in January to discuss the continued trade unions affiliation and funding of this Labour Party. Should it take place I believe it will decide to end all TU links with the party and draw up plans for the launching of a fresh socialist party in Britain.

I am one who definitely hope the above comes about as matters cannot go on as they are in in regard to the broader UK Labour movement and in its relationship with the Parliamentary Labour Party.

Ramblingrose22 you don't need to watch all the link, it's expained in the first few seconds. But then you must know that already as you know it is 11 mins long.
People who refer to Jews suporting Palestine as "self-hating Jews often refer to non-Jews with similar opinions as antisemites.

Rambling

"Self hating Jew"has all the relevance of the OP and "Who will be left in the Labour Party" Because Starmer is making it about only one type of Jew. If you really want to understand this better the video spoken very clearly eloquently by this anti Zionist Jewish lady who supports Palestine will give you a clear understanding of what the situation is about now. Starmer is taking away freedom of speech for members and AR his deputy It really seems that a lot of people can see that Starmer is not standing up for working man. And by the way other Starmer and AR did not do or say anything when several people were put on a plane deported Five NEC embers wrote a letter to them both asking them to intervene about this.