Who will be left in the Labour Party?

Trisher - when I click on the link it shows how long the video lasts without the need to press Play so no, I don't already know what it means. Please don't make assumptions about what I know already.

Grany - I would like to understand why Jews who are members of the Labour Party or any Jews for that matter should hate themselves and why you regard them as very relevant to the OP. It's a pity that you can't be bothered to explain the relevance yourself - just tell me to watch a video!

Classic!

the video explains it perfectly, so why repeat?

The jews like the lady in the video don't hate themselves- they are accused by other Jews of hating their religion (which they do not btw).

here is the link again

youtu.be/SjhHhL_15Nw

there is no reason why it should not work for you, as you clearly have internet connection.

I've tried again and again and this always starts. I never have to click play!

Looking at the OP, Angela Rayner doesn't have the power to single-handedly suspend any member of the Labour Party found to acted in an anti-semitic way. I think she was making the point that anti-semitism is not acceptable within the Labour Party and members found to be anti-semitic will be expelled no matter how large the number turns out to be. I can't see a problem with this.

biba70 - thanks for explaining that this is not about individual Jews hating themselves but rather about Jewish Labour Party members accusing other Labour Party Jewish members of hating the Jewish religion or hating Israel because they have spoken out about the treatment of Palestinians.

If statements made by either side do fall within the IHRA definition of being anti-semitic then then the Labour Party members affected can make a complaint. I asked you before what you meant by the term "anti-zionist" but you didn't provide an answer. If it means someone who denies the right of the State of Israel to exist that could well be within the IHRA definition of anti-semitism.

I realise that people with strong views will always throw accusations at each other and that people from one branch of the same religion often hate others in different branches of it. Unfortunately this is nothing new and will continue regardless.

That is why I am pleased that there will be an independent panel in future dealing with all complaints about anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

The Labour Party will always be an irrelevance unless it supports electoral reform.

anti-zionism - definition:
is a prejudice against the Jewish movement for self determination and the right of the Jewish people to a homeland in the state of Israel. It may be motivated or result in anti semitism, or it may create a climate in which antisemitism becomes more acceptable.

Iam64

anti-zionism - definition:
is a prejudice against the Jewish movement for self determination and the right of the Jewish people to a homeland in the state of Israel. It may be motivated or result in anti semitism, or it may create a climate in which antisemitism becomes more acceptable.

Yes I agree, but I think that Zionism has evolved over the century and is now an expansionist entity, which I feel is problematic.

Iam64

anti-zionism - definition:
is a prejudice against the Jewish movement for self determination and the right of the Jewish people to a homeland in the state of Israel. It may be motivated or result in anti semitism, or it may create a climate in which antisemitism becomes more acceptable.

Where has that definition come from, Iam64?

It feels heavily weighted to make just about any criticism of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians 'antisemitic'.

The Anti Defamation league - which I've now read more about. It started in 1913 to oppose increasing anti semitism.So I suppose it could be dismissed. I agree that the current Israeli government is expansionist .

Perhaps time to get back to the OP.

The LP is destroying itself and the result will be disastrous.

Grany Thank you so much for giving the link to that fantastic opinion piece by Jaomi Wimborne-Idrissi. She is so articulate and natural. Brilliant.

As for Starmer, I was hoping he would be OK but I'm definitely losing faith now.

Did the people who are defending Starmer, et al, listen to the link of Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi? Did they hear what happened at the meeting she attended, where one of the main speakers was a Holocaust survivor? He was shouted down to such an extent that he could not be heard, and he and anyone agreeing with him, was, sickeningly, called a Kapo - which she explained likens a Jew to traitorous and brutal Jewish guards who collaborated with the Nazis.

So it seems it's OK for Jewish people with a certain point of view to disrupt a meeting, call people foul names, prevent speakers from speaking and eventually ruin the whole event. If it were the other way round wouldn't it be broadcast widely and roundly condemned?

It seems that only one story may be told and anyone who has the temerity to criticise Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is automatically labelled anti-semite and, if you are Jewish and not following the "party line", you are written off as being a pathetic and neurotic creature - a self hating Jew.

I think Starmer's behaviour is outrageous.

Yes, I listened to the link.
Shocking, any kind of aggressive bigotry is shocking.
The treatment of Jewish MP's was shocking.

The question is now, is their anyone in the PLP who could bring unity to the party before so have left taking their talents and support with them, and the trade unions have decided they have had enough that the whole organisation is no longer viable.

I don't quite understand what you are saying, Oldtimer60, but I think that you've touched on what I was musing on last night (when I couldn't get to sleep!)
If Starmer doesn't succeed Is there anyone who could bring unity to the Labour Party?

One of the reasons that I couldn't sleep was a rising fury at how Corbyn's appalling refusal to support the LP leader by removing one tiny part of his 'statement' in response to the EHRC report, has led to turmoil in the LP. To think that I used to stick up for him when he turns out to be a vindictive and selfish old permanent 'rebel'.

As if we needed that with the worst government ever of my lifetime in power and the imminence of the major catastrophe that is our final severance of ties with the EU

From the sound of it I don't think either side is covering itself with glory.

The virus , brexit , unemployed, food banks ? Not important.

Top comes Corbyn’s ego.

MaizieD had Starmer chosen to ignore Corbyn and move things on this would be yesterday's news. Which brings up 2 possibilities neither of which cover Starmer in glory. They are either he wants to create a dispute with the left of the party and move it substantially to the right, or, he lacks any sort of judgement about what is important. But regardless of the reasons for his actions his failure to focus on speaking out about the very real consequences this virus is having on the poorest and weakest in our society is unforgiveable.

It is time for those of you who dislike or are angry with Jeremy Corbyn to accept that he is no longer the party leader. What is happening in the Labour party now is under the leadership of Keir Starmer.
Labour's position on Brexit, the pandemic, unfair deportations etc. are decided by Keir Starmer. That he chooses not to discuss these matters as a priority is not the responsibility of the former leader.

Or maybe he knows exactly what he’s doing, and moving the party substantially to the right is a planned manoevre which will bring the party back to the left of centre position that the majority of the British public can live with a lot more comfortably than hard left. I think he’s got a lot more nous than some people want to give him credit for - one thing’s for sure, time will tell.

MaizieD, regarding your post at 11:58 today, what the left and right of the Labour Party has carried out, or not carried out, in past months and years has been discussed thoroughly on this forum and other media sites without end it would seem. However, it is the way that Starmer has handled those problems that has now become the major issue above all others in the Labour movement and now threaten the very future of the Party.

Unless things rapidly improve for Kier Starmer it is very likely that Ian Lavery will mount a leadership challenge in the new year and others then would undoubtedly join that challenge to become leader. Therefore, what I was in some ways thinking out loud in my post at 9:38 today was is there anyone on the Labour benches who could command the respect of all wings of the party and movement so as to be able to bring unity to Labour.

I was thinking in terms of someone from the mould of Harold Wilson who held the respect of left and right throughout his period of leadership, for if there is no one of such stature available now, then the Labour Party cannot continue in its present structure and will have to divide.

So, is there anyone on the Labour benches that holds such abilities and command such respect???????

Harold Wilson held the respect of the left !

www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jan/01/past.nationalarchives

MaizieD had Starmer chosen to ignore Corbyn and move things on this would be yesterday's news.

That is an absolutely pathetic excuse, trisher. Corbyn knew what Starmer was going to say, Starmer had briefed him on it the day before. Corbyn deliberately inflamed the situation and if the LP breaks up he will be the catalyst. Sorry, no respect left for him.

Which is sad, because I think that all along he was actually a decent and humane bloke.

So, is there anyone on the Labour benches that holds such abilities and command such respect

I think that you and I were thinking along the same lines in respect of that question, Oldtimer.

I think the answer is probably 'no'.

Which is a tragedy for the UK (or whatever remains of it in 4 years time)

Casdon if all you can gather from my post is that he might be centrist it's a sad state of affairs. No one should be playing right against left in the LP at the moment, no one should be thinking about if they will get voted in by a centrist vote. They should be focussing on exposing what is really hapening how the poorest and weakest are suffering the most from this pandemic, how badly this is being dealt with and how much of it is the result of years of Tories cutting the services which maintain standards in society.