“Trafficked” girls.

I think you are correct, also the girls were 17 ( in the Prince Andrew case) which in the USA is underage, but not over here, however, when in the US their laws apply and he should own up to the truth and not run away and hide over here. At the end of the day though the Law was broken as they were underage in the US, but IMV not trafficked.
It’s certainly not doing any older mans reputation any good to have sex with young teenagers, but at least man up and admit it.
As ever it’s one rule for the Royals.

Were they willing participants in the Epstein case ? This is the difference. Did they know or realise what their presence would entail ? If yes, then they clearly weren't trafficked, unless it can be proved that they were misguided under false pretences.

I am not sure I agree. Certainly these girls do not conform to the standard scenario usually associated with trafficking, but if you look at it dispassionately, Epstein had a taste for young girls, he had friends willing to procure them for him. Most were in their early teens (by definition), usually from disadvantaged back grounds, who were initially offered work that on the surface seem respectable enough, but were gradually drawn in to providing sexual servicest, they were then flown out to islands he wholly owned with no escape, to provide sexual services to Epstein and his friends. Flown elsewhere in the world to do the same. They actually had very little ability to walk away. They were like butterflies in a net

The methodsthat Epstein and his procurers used were not that different to those used by various gangs in cities like Oxford and Rochdale, just done by rich men with private jets and private islands.

On the question of age of consent, I am less sure, someone having sex with a 17 year old is quite legal in the UK, but if the 17 year old has been flown to the UK by their American pimps. How else do you describe Epstein and allegedly, Maxwell? You are again in a trafficking situation. These girls, young and ignorant, are in a foreign country, taken there by their pimps to offer sexual services to the pimp's friends. If they had the ability to walk away most would have, how many 15 - 19 year old girls from a limited background could do that?

Just because someone can do expensively and in style what we normally associate with crime and criminality, does not change the fact that they are trafficking these girls as much as any Albanian people smuggler.

I think from the POV of the USA they were underage so weren’t able to be a ‘willing participant’, they haven’t mentioned coercion or drugs, but they were underage, it seems that in later life they have regretted their decisions and are now going to court for compensation.

Perhaps we could do a swap with the US: send Prince Andrew over, there and get the US diplomat's wife over here to stand trial - the one who ran that young man over.

And pigs might fly..........

MOnica true, but they all did walk away didnt they?
Maybe when they reached the legal age they weren’t found to be so attractive to the old rich slobs.
Yuk, a mucky business however you look at it.

It is a more sophisticated type of trafficking that's all, used by the rich and powerful to entice young vulnerable women and girls into their world of sleaze.

As M0nica said, they are like butterflies in a net, albeit a more glamorous one.

Callistemon

It is a more sophisticated type of trafficking that's all, used by the rich and powerful to entice young vulnerable women and girls into their world of sleaze.

As M0nica said, they are like butterflies in a net, albeit a more glamorous one.

I would agree with you. When we think of trafficking it is the sleazy underworld that springs to mind. The Epstein girls were still trafficked but in a celebrity filled world which, sadly, appeals to many young women today.

I think that's a very fair and reasonable swap Luckygirl. And if PA has done nothing wrong, he has nothing to hide or fear by being questioned has he? Ditto the diplomat's wife. but they'll both cower and hide behind their privilege like the snivelling cowards they are

Monica hear hear. Regardless of how much money etc Epstein had, these were young girls placed in difficult situations. I feel there's some victim blaming going on. The only ones responsible here are the people who organised it and the men who indulged in predatory behaviour.

It’s like can you be a little bit pregnant you either are or you’re not
They were abused of course there are degrees around how it happens and some conditions are a million times worse but they are all older richer more influential men taking advantage of young girls or lads in some cases
If anyone watches Corrie there is a story line at the moment of a seemingly rich owner of an empire sleeping with a young teenage employee with all the promises of making her a manager something in her family she could have only ever dreamed of she’s not thinking beyond the fact that he holds the key to her success in life how proud her parents will be of her achievements etc
All of these situations are illegal, wrong and abominable

I agree with the OP; the terminology is becoming more extreme, and it demeans these women who are traded and trafficked with no possibility of escape. The world Virginia Guiffre entered was sleazy and predatory but she chose to enter it and was able to leave of her own volition, with a pay-off, I believe.

Having escaped Epstein and seen him brought to justice she is now in the clutches of expensive lawyers, who will not let the case drop until they have extracted the maximum amount of money, which will mostly go to them.

Accusations of subsequent prostitution and worse are being made by the other side and every detail of her life is scrutinised and exposed. Prince Harry is a prime example of his mother's very public pursuit of vengeance; what effect will this case have on Guiffre's children?

eazybee she was 14/15 when she was lured into it. Yes, in her case she managed to get out, as do some trafficked in less salubrious circumstances, but I think her 'escape' had more to do with her becoming too old for the requirements of Epstein and his friends, so expendable and expended.

What has followed has no bearing on whether she was trafficked or not when it happened. Unfortunately the American legal culture is very different to ours and seems very distasteful, but this is the country that voted Donald Trump into the Presidency, with all that has surrounded him and his many legal challenges.

I agree with M0nica.

I also think it would be a shame if the discussion around what happens is allowed to centre on the semantics. Call it trafficking, call it procuring, call it what you will - these were vulnerable girls and very young women who were caught up in a situation they couldn't hope to control, and those abusing them were rich and powerful. It stinks, and it would be great to see justice prevail.

I agree, Doodledog.

This is victim-blaming and if by other women it is sickening.

Sorry eazybee but I just can't accept your reasoning on this. The young women who are trafficked by using entrapment, with no means of escape, are just one strand of sexual exploitation. The likes of Virginia Guiffre are no less a victim; they were entrapped and sold by older men for money, just the same as other victims. The only difference is that there's was a slightly more sophisticated method, used by rich and powerful men instead of being sold to a grubby little man in a raincoat. Different methods but the end result was exactly the same.

Young girls (some underage according to USA state laws) from low income families were allegedly recruited for non existent glamorous well paid jobs, then used and abused by men.

Yes it’s trafficking and I hope all involved are brought to justice whoever /wherever they are.

GrannyGravy13

Young girls (some underage according to USA state laws) from low income families were allegedly recruited for non existent glamorous well paid jobs, then used and abused by men.

Yes it’s trafficking and I hope all involved are brought to justice whoever /wherever they are.

Yes, schoolgirls were procured (allegedly) by Maxwell for Epstein and his pals with false promises of exciting work.

The thought of an exciting glamorous job must be enticing especially to girls from a deprived or poor background.

Were the girls with Epstein sold ? Did the men who slept with
these girls pay Epstein ?

I doubt they gave him any recompense that could be traced but favours, kickbacks etc; he had information on powerful people that could be used to advantage.

Did these girls live with parents/ guardians ? Did the parents/ guardians know where the girls were going ? If they were under 18 and presumed missing from home why didn't the parents/ guardians report the matter ? Most parents would.

Callistemon they were promised places at good universities because Epstein "had connections".

That's even worse, Chewbacca

Pure evil.

I think people will always find excuses for the behaviour of men like this, the girls, their parents, etc etc. The culpability lies with the men who did this.