New EU Treaty - a good deal or not?

spangler the differece is that if remain had won,nothing would have changed.We wouln't lose EU workers or the ability to travel freely amongst a multitude of other things.Brexit will disrupt lives and businesses the length and breadth of these islands ,unecessarily so.All because some crooked tories want to avoid tax on there money in offshore accounts.
I see they are considering a knighthood for Farage.....who made sure HIS family have EU passports

Tweedle24 Wed 30-Dec-20 11:37:49

As I said, I voted to stay so, have no real drum to beat to support Brexit. I just accept that it was a democratic vote although, I still wonder about the validity of a result that was so close, particularly when so many did not even bother to vote at all

One thing is for sure though. If the result had been the reverse there would have not been any argument. Cameron would have claimed it as a mandate and that would have been that. Nobody would have said it was a close call, Brexit supporters would have been dismissed as poor losers.

A lot of the MPs voting against were northern Irish MPs - from across the political divide. They had very good reasons for voting against.

I am hoping Brexit will tie them up so much Maizie that there will be no time to take aim at the HRA. Fingers crossed!

Two excellent speeches from Meg Hillier and Daniel Zeichner, both Labour MPs, explaining why they cannot support this bad deal.

Those MP’s voting against the ‘thin’ deal are just exercising a protest vote. They know if it doesn’t pass, then from Friday, it’d be No Deal.
?

Yes, it's not the deal these critics have an issue with. No deal of any kind will ever be good enough for them, because their issue is with the fact we've left. They've never come to terms with this and never will.

However, to maintain the pretence that they have the public's interests at heart, they aim their ire at the contents of the deal.

I will be voting against the Boris Johnson Brexit Agreement . Just finished discussions with @allianceparty members.

We remain strongly pro-European and are not prepared to give legitimacy or acquiescence to a hard Brexit which damages Northern Ireland.

Stephen Farry MP

Anyone who thought many fishing rights would be gained by the UK was a fool, even if they did they couldn’t find UK crews for the boats. I expected some extra to help the small local boats but even that looks pretty slim, my thoughts were that it would all be negotiated away - and it was.

At the end of the day far more valuable deals had too be done and fishing was far too small, so was sacrificed. That’s Politics.

This is where the GFA was so genius. It allowed people to choose to identify as Irish or British allowing for a (sometimes uneasy) peace. The GFA worked because both sides were Europeans which is why this is such a risky time. Republicans will not want to be forced to identify as British & Unionists will not tolerate any pushing closer to Eire.

This needs repeating over and over again. GENIUS.

Brexit puts this all on a knife edge again. The topic has been mentioned on here a few times in the last 4 years. I can assure you, from experience, that Leavers don't give a shiny sh*t about their vote endangering the GFA. Despite most of them having lived through the 30 year horror of 'The Troubles'...

Nezumi65

Oh dear - We’re going to have lots of these snippets aren’t we? To the point we’ll become deaf to them

twitter.com/hackedoffhugh/status/1343890893745565696?s=21

The greatest irony is that the disconsolate eel breeder who regrets voting Leave was actually a huge Brexit supporter and featured in a UKIP pre-ref. propaganda video

Tweedle24

Nezumi I am not sure the Tories want human rights per se to go away. The reason a lot of people voted for Brexit was to maintain sovereignty and, having to defer to the European Courts was one of the objections to remaining within the EU.

As I said, I voted to stay so, have no real drum to beat to support Brexit. I just accept that it was a democratic vote although, I still wonder about the validity of a result that was so close, particularly when so many did not even bother to vote at all.

Well, I'm afraid that they got completely (and probably deliberately) confused when it came to Human Rights and European courts.

The European Court of Justice (EJC) is an EU court set up to resolve disputes between member states over matters concerning EU law and regulations.

The European Court of Human Rights has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EU. So, if people were voting Leave to do away with association with that court they were pretty stupid, weren't they?

It has been the avowed intention of our government to 'amend' the UK Human Rights legislation; which, given the composition of the cabinet of hardline anti-liberals, is hardly going to involve improving our rights under the law, is it? It seems more likely that they will be removing rights...

Lots of people wonder about the validity of the vote.

Particularly as it was achieved through lies, fraud and cheating and it was admitted by the government's advocate, in court, that the government knew it was dodgy but couldn't void it because it hadn't been mandatory...

Oh dear - We’re going to have lots of these snippets aren’t we? To the point we’ll become deaf to them

twitter.com/hackedoffhugh/status/1343890893745565696?s=21

They’re not keen on human rights for prisoners tweedle - & have been fed years of bullshit from the likes of the Mail.

Nezumi I am not sure the Tories want human rights per se to go away. The reason a lot of people voted for Brexit was to maintain sovereignty and, having to defer to the European Courts was one of the objections to remaining within the EU.

As I said, I voted to stay so, have no real drum to beat to support Brexit. I just accept that it was a democratic vote although, I still wonder about the validity of a result that was so close, particularly when so many did not even bother to vote at all.

I agree with you nezumi that change won’t happen overnight, and the Westminster government don’t give a stuff about NI. As proven by the EU treaty

Vegansrock - have you ever spent any time in a unionist community in NI? They really are not going to say ‘oh yep we’re Irish now and are outnumbered so will look to Dublin’. It’s nowhere near that stage.

I think you have to spend time in Northern Ireland to understand that a) change is not going to happen quickly and b) there is no one absolute right to the land/identity.

This is where the GFA was so genius. It allowed people to choose to identify as Irish or British allowing for a (sometimes uneasy) peace. The GFA worked because both sides were Europeans which is why this is such a risky time. Republicans will not want to be forced to identify as British & Unionists will not tolerate any pushing closer to Eire.

I doubt Johnson and his ilk even gave any of this more than 2 seconds of thought.

I agree that the divisions run deep, but a community lives in Ireland for hundreds of years, yet still doesn’t consider themselves Irish is rather perverse and obviously has its roots in religious differences. the influence of organised religion will wane as it has done just about everywhere else in the U.K. and Ireland. No easy solution, but if it’s about majority rule nationalists will outnumber the unionists very soon if they don’t already. This will shift the balance.

it was the Protestant in comers who seized land from the native Irish population

If you're going to refer back to things that happened 400/500 years ago you'll get nowhere with a solution for NI.

How long does a family have to be settled in a country for them to become 'Irish', or 'Scottish', or 'Canadian', or any other 'nationality? Narratives which boil down to 'we were here first (albeit hundreds of years ago)' aren't helpful. We know that from experience of 'The Troubles'.

The differences will hopefully diminish over time, especially as the Catholic population will outnumber the Protestants in NI in a few years time if they don’t already. I don’t think you can compare N I unionists with Palestinians it’s more the other way round surely, it was the Protestant in comers who seized land from the native Irish population

What Elegran said

David - I think that is a long way off.

Retiredwell "Britain should not have held on to a presence in Ireland when it became an independent state."

It is not as simple as "Britain holding on to a presence" There are two conflicting aspirations in the Province to be reconciled. About half of the people living in Northern Ireland wanted to continue being a part of Britain. They were mainly Protestant descendants of those who went there three or four hundred years ago. They had roots there - family farms and businesses and ancestors in the graveyards - and had/have as much right to stay and choose their nationality and governance as the Palestinians who were dislodged when the State of Israel was renewed.

The hardline Unionists will simply be voted out of power, the benefits of being closer to Ireland will be more than the UK offers.

Interesting that the lack of certainty seems to be of concern to may of the Parties.

This is good summary of the northern Irish political view www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-55462155

Retiredwell - unionists would not go quietly or peacefully.

Whether or not it remains part of the U.K. should be up to the people living there - unfortunately the communities are still roughly 50:50 so any move to reunification is very likely to be destabilising - and unfortunately the northern Irish population will pay the price. I assume that’s why the SDLP are voting alongside the DUP and against the deal today.