Still European

I'm British, Scottish and live in a part of the world that is looked on as 'Europe'. The EU trading bloc is something else.

My passport says I’m British and that’s how I feel, others that call themselves Scots or Welsh are just being deliberately divisive

Eh? I don't think so David0205; just as you see yourself as "British", the Scots and Welsh see themselves as Scottish and errr.... Welsh? I think of myself primarily as Welsh; British secondly. Sorry if that's divisive!

My eldest daughter has a Spanish father. There is no way he'd ever refer to himself as European.

He's Spanish.

So should my daughter say she's half Spanish and half European? Or half European and half British/English?

Or is she just European? Totally dismiss her birthright. It's nonsensical.

If asked she says her father is Spanish. Is that wrong?

I don't get this yearning to be seen as European.

We are a country in Europe. Why do people want some homogeneous mass?

I posted this on another forum, but it's relevant to this discussion.
This is what Winston Churchill had to say in 1930 (I believe) about the relationship between the UK and Europe “We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not compromised; interested and associated but not absorbed.”
These words chime with my own feelings about Europe, and could be a blueprint for our future relations with the EU.

Who says anyone wants a homogenerous mass?

Think of the USA- Vermont could not be more different to Arizona or New Mexico, New York State is totally different to California, and on, and on.

We don't have a United States of Europe though, biba70

Can’t see why this has to be argued about. If you don’t feel European that’s fine. If you do that’s also fine.

I once spent about three or four weeks visiting USA , coast to coast etc. Travelled huge distances and the food and the language were the still the same. When I returned to work I flew to Brussels first, spoke French etc. Then on to Italy , spoke Italian ate Italian food etc. And I was born in England. And that’s when I felt European, and have felt that way since.

Chewbacca

^My passport says I’m British and that’s how I feel, others that call themselves Scots or Welsh are^ just being deliberately divisive

Eh? I don't think so David0205; just as you see yourself as "British", the Scots and Welsh see themselves as Scottish and errr.... Welsh? I think of myself primarily as Welsh; British secondly. Sorry if that's divisive!

Maybe we English should be more nationalistic, but that wouldn’t be PC, we would then be accused of being English Nationalists.

Lucretzia

We don't have a United States of Europe though, biba70

so we don't have an homogeneous mass- and we still wouldn't have if we did have a United States of Europe either.

Can’t see why this has to be argued about. If you don’t feel European that’s fine. If you do that’s also fine.

That is quite true, Lucca

Tell me though, if you're in Spain/Italy/Germany now and someone asks what's your nationality, do you just say European?

I'm a Heinz 57---38% European, the rest British, Scottish and Irish.

I would certainly not describe myself as European if asked my nationality; that would sound a bit bonkers. I just say I am British in France. I still teach English to the local U3A and share the joys of the language with my students. (We had a lovely session before Christmas about sporting metaphors and they were enchanted by "sticky wickets" and "straight bats".) I do think it is important to make a contribution to my adopted country and this is something I can do.
No Biba not taken nationality. There is a very long wait and lots of young working people in the queue. It seems only right that they go first, we have rights to permanent residence and no need for cross-border rights.

When we are in our tiny second home in Spain, in a residential area, lots of our Spanish neighbours display their flag ?? on their balconies or by their high walled garden gate.

Why do we feel it’s jingoistic in the UK?

The Spaniards I chat to are lovely people and proud to be Spanish!

There’s not one EU flag anywhere ...
?

Lucretzia

*Can’t see why this has to be argued about. If you don’t feel European that’s fine. If you do that’s also fine.*

That is quite true, Lucca

Tell me though, if you're in Spain/Italy/Germany now and someone asks what's your nationality, do you just say European?

Of course not. Your nationality is what it is, but you can still feel European.

I certainly do feel European. I was born in this country and have lived here all my life, my Mother was Czech and fled here from the Nazis. I have always had friends and family in all parts of Europe and feel very sad about Brexit.

I took British Nationality because before the EU- not doing so could cause all sorts of problems. But also because it felt right - I was living in the UK, with a British husband - it was important to me to make the move, and have the same passport as him and our child. I think the trigger was queuing at airport in the very long 'alien' queue- whilst my husband and screaming baby, needing to be fed- were waiting for me on the other side. Having two nationalities never ever caused identity issues- and adding 'European' doesn't either.

Urmstongran there are EU flags on public buildings and hotels etc everywhere in Spain. I am amazed that you haven't seen them.
I think national flags are far more likely to be on private balconies, but my son has lived in Spain for over 20 years and would say they are mostly associated with national days and football, just like everywhere else.

Maybe we English should be more nationalistic, but that wouldn’t be PC, we would then be accused of being English Nationalists.

Then reclaim your national flag David and take pride in your country. The Welsh and Scottish are all very proud to fly ours both from public buildings and our homes. Maybe now that Brexit has been completed, you'll be able to reclaim yours.

I know that Mamie.
I was talking about the flags my neighbours chose to display!
??
Of course public buildings put up EU flags. They’re everywhere in the town centre.

Well exactly Urmstongran. You wouldn't expect the EU flag on a balcony would you? Like I said National days and football. They are even more prevalent in Catalunya.
I thought English houses were not short of the St George's flag when England are playing?

I’m Welsh, British, European and then a ‘citizen of the world’ .....as opposed to where else?

In our town in Spain, where lots have the Spanish flag on their properties (never the EU one, occasionally Andalusia one) we fly the Draig Goch and the Spanish flag on mi Casa walls and our neighbours love it!

What a dreadfully pointless discussion. We are geographically European, our island was even physically part of the continent of Europe at one time. So we are all European.

The fact that people in European countries fly their national flags is completely unremarkable.

The EU is not a country, it's a regulatory, trading and mutual support organisation. It has a flag that symbolises the coming together of nations, but why anybody should use the fact that people don't tend to fly it in their front gardens as proof that they don't identify as 'European' is complete nonsense.

"There is one case," wrote Dostoevsky, "and only one, when a man may deliberately and consciously desire something that is downright harmful even stupid, even extremely stupid, and that is: to have the right to desire what is even extremely stupid and not to be duty bound to desire only what is intelligent."

That, for me, is Brexit. No one in their right mind ever really believed closing yourself off from your closest economic, political and geopolitical partner would be a constructive thing to do. But some honestly believed they had the right to do so, and the only way to spectacularly reaffirm that right was through something spectacularly self-harmful and destructive.

Still, it saddens and even frightens me to see how a great country can continue to belittle itself in this way. Because, apart from Dostoevsky's, there are many more cases to start doing the responsible thing, the wise and dutiful thing. And Brexit, we should all understand by now, is none of those things.

Even apart from economics – the small companies scrambling to get a grip on the kind of paperwork they never knew existed, the open fields turned into concrete lorry parks – the state of the world in 2020 doesn't make this any wiser.

Russian interference should worry all of us; Chinese assertiveness looks down upon democracies as never before; the new US administration will need to focus on healing its own wounds for years to come... I could go on, but you know the endless list of frightful internal and international challenges liberal democracies are facing. And then came Covid-19...

If ever there was a case for European countries to come together, it is now. Britain chose not to, and has not found a way to change its mind since.

Democracy is a way to start anew, time and again. To change your mind, when facts change. No one under the age of 22 had a say in the dreadful decision implemented this week. Those just old enough to vote at the time of the referendum overwhelmingly voted to remain. Whatever happens next, these younger generations will decide on their future for themselves. At some point, one way or another, they will find their way back to the European family.

As from our side, all we can do in the meantime is try to find least-bad options to make the new relationship work. And I for one will always plead for the European Union to keep its arms and mind open for friends across the Channel, for instance by keeping Erasmus and other exchange programmes open for young Britons.

This relationship was never easy, but there was always - and will always be - a lot of heart and mind in it. As a democrat and an optimist, I still believe these will win out in the end.

Guy Verhofstadt

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/guy-verhofstadt-on-the-brexit-latest-6872056

I’m obviously a bear if very little brain .... ?
Never mind.

This I’ve tried to upload three times
www.google.co.uk/search?q=french+brexit+song&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari