Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

plays into the hands of those of us who want independence to build ourselves a proper country away from people who think they know what we want.

If you are talking about English politicians, Alegrias then we have had many Scottish politicians who have been part of the United Kingdom Government, including Prime Ministers steering the ship for the whole country.
The problem with the SNP becoming so popular and prominent in Scottish politics is that this will not happen again.

I can understand that, as the majority in Scotland voted to remain, they are unhappy with the result of the referendum.

I don't want to see the Union split. I know quite a number of Scots and I don't know a single one who would have voted for an independent Scotland, but, of course, they are the ones who don't live there now. They have broadened their horizons, worked overseas or in the rest of the UK and see us as a whole, not as discrete parts.

Paddyanne you are guilty of using the Royal ‘we’.

Not everybody in Scotland agrees with you, you are speaking for a proportion, not the whole country.

Isn’t that one of the issues with all the proposed changes to the status quo though, there will never be a solution that pleases everybody.

I don’t think any of the constituent parts of the UK are happy with the current political arrangements. In population terms, for example North West England is considerably bigger in population terms than any of the other nations, and they also feel they get a raw deal, as does the North East, Yorkshire, etc.

Scotland must choose its own path whatever that turns out to be, but there’s a very strong case for more devolved government for the regions of England as well.

Scotland is NOT a region .its a country that was Independent for longer than it has been part of the union. We have our own Church and systems of Law and Education and our own ideals
That is a union we didn't want and were sold into.There were riots on the streets about it .It was supposed to be a UNION there was never any evidence we were treated as equals
.We dont want to spill blood over Independence as the Irish had to we're happy to do it through the ballot box..I have been a supporter of Independence since I was 13 ,thats 54 years ago and can find no reasons that would make me change my mind . Independence is NORMAL

merlotgran

Can somebody please point out the disadvantages to the rest of the UK if Scotland leaves?

Don’t think this has been answered yet, I too wonder about this.

Good thought WhenIwasyourage. That could work. Change needs to happen if we are to go forward in peace.

Sorry, back again. People say that Nicola Sturgeon is always banging on about another referendum, but she is not, in spite of what you will see in the Unionist press, using her Covid updates to do so. In fact, here the person banging on about it is our (sadly) Tory MP, who has been doing so regularly for some time! He is no doubt doing so as preventing one is the only policy he seems to be able to come up with.

LauraNorder, if the English regions were to become interested in a federal system, that could be a way forward and allow each region and nation to be more fairly represented. At the moment, as England works as a whole, the UK is unbalanced. It is obvious that some areas feel unhappy - parts of the North feel ignored, and London voted to stay in the EU as Riverwalk says. So far there is no sign of that approach happening.

LauraNorder

Would PippaZ’s idea appeal to all. A separate parliament for each nation with equal representation in an upper house?
Or would that result in other regions of each nation wanting more representation?

You can devolve power within a country or offer a fairer voting system LauraNorder.

What Alegrias1 says.

Also, please could we have less of the "Where do the Scots think the money comes from?" stuff? We pay taxes like everyone in the UK. We choose, through our elected Parliament, to spend some of it differently from how it is spent in other nations - on free prescriptions as one example.

The other point I would like to emphasise is that independence support does not necessarily equal SNP voting.

Why would we need hard borders with the rest of the UK? Is it impossible to imagine a Schengen-type arrangement?

lynx, I wonder which peculiar part of Scotland you are visiting when your husband feels that he has to put on an accent which he doesn't normally use. Michael Gove does that, and it's very irritating!

Would PippaZ’s idea appeal to all. A separate parliament for each nation with equal representation in an upper house?
Or would that result in other regions of each nation wanting more representation?

Second time this week I agree with PippaZ blimey.

paddyanne why should people who dont live work or contribute to Scotland have a vote? Surely they have a vote where they live?
They have a vote where they live to decide who represents them in Parliament.

A referendum to decide on independence is completely different from voting for your MP whether it’s the Westminster Government or the Scottish Parliament.

I wasn’t suggesting expatriate Scots should have been allowed to vote, only that I was surprised that they weren’t.
All the Scots I have known who lived & worked outside Scotland have all identified strongly as Scots & I got the impression that the heritage & cultural aspect of the Independence cause was important to Scots, albeit not as important as the political and economic aspects.
But happy to be corrected.

Sorry Alegrias I take so long to type on my tiny phone with my fat fingers I crossed posts with you.
Thank you for bringing your post over. Giving some insight in to how others in Scotland feel. I know you have said you can’t speak for all but I imagine many will feel like you.

I have long felt that the only thing that will keep us together is an English parliament. You cannot, at the same time, even-handedly represent England and represent all the countries of UK. Nor can you represent the areas of England properly with the parliament we have.

So like the Scots I feel side-lined and unrepresented. I don't blame them for wanting independence but I think they would thrive better with a more devolved country within a properly representative upper house.

No PaddyAnne, this is not a knock the SNP thread. I am trying to keep it on track as a sensible discussion so that we can all understand each other.
I am English, I feel hated by some in all other nations simply because I am English. I don’t want to feel like that. I want to feel British and part of a whole.
I want to understand why some feel that intense hatred and why others feel that they don’t want to be British. So far the point that makes the most sense to me is Alegrias not wanting to be part of a country where one nation has dominance. I wouldn’t want that either. So how can we rectify that?

Here's the main part of my original post, as requested by Laura

I don’t believe anyone in Scotland thinks we’d walk out of the UK union and right into the EU the next day, but the fact that we have a deal now, however bad it is, means that we will remain aligned with some EU rules and that would make entry easier in the future.

But, if it were proven that we couldn’t join the EU, then we have the choice of being a small independent nation like Norway or Iceland (Yes, I know they have lots of money). Or a country tied to a larger, dominant country whose values are diverging rapidly from ours both politically, socially and culturally. A country that’s ignored our separate needs for many years and is threatened by a devolved parliament. A country that is trying to gaslight the Scottish population into thinking it doesn’t want independence because we need the bigger, more powerful country to look after us and to remain in their “precious union”.

Oh, and people who think that insulting our elected FM is OK and fail to see that we elected her party, so in telling us how crap she is, you’re telling us how stupid we were to vote for her. Or think that we’re daft enough to fall for “lovebombing” thinking it will divert our minds from the way we’ve been treated since the last time they tried that in 2014, when they immediately changed tack the minute power came back to Westminster.

So yes, independence over this Union, every time.

I and people like me want to build a country that reflects our values.

Some of the posts above; "I don't think they realise..." "What they should do is....." "NS is riling up the Scots...." We're not stupid, we're fed up.

Jainainsworth why should people who dont live work or contribute to Scotland have a vote? Surely they have a vote where they live?

Being in a different country to our friends, neighbours, family. Loss of years of shared systems. Horrid borders would be a few disadvantages
I’d rather see how we can make it right and save our union hence my hope of some open discussion about how Scots, Welsh and N Irish feel and how the English feel.
Do we acknowledge that we wouldn’t want to be pArt of a union where one of the other nations dominated? Hence the Brexit vote.

So this isn't an Independence thread at all ... its a lets knock SNP and its supporters !

Scotland voted for the SNP in both the Holyrood parliament and in WM because we want change ..voting for the unionist parties who are controlled south of the border will never achieve that change .Maybe try to respect OUR choice ,at least we dont foist it on others as England has for many years We haven't voted for a majority tory govt since 1953 ..we get them whether we vote for them or not .We need to make our own choices thank you,we are evry capable of choosing whats right for us .

One thing that puzzled me about the 2014 referendum was that Scottish people living in England didn’t have a vote, and English people living in Scotland did.
Having fervently hoped in 2014 that the Scots would vote to stay in the U.K., now I really don’t care.
Although I voted to remain in the EU, it feels as though the combination of Brexit and Covid has changed my world view and made me more insular, which I don’t like.
I just hope the Scots don’t decide they’d like to annex Northumberland!

Can somebody please point out the disadvantages to the rest of the UK if Scotland leaves?

I'm English, Married to a Scot and living in Wales. I really hope we stay united. Going back to Hubby's home, he has to put on his usually non existent accent to be made welcome in some parts of Scotland which we both are sad about. I hope no further referendums are allowed but NS is riling up the Scots. They don't seem to realise they cannot afford independence. (hides behind wall)

I am Scottish and living in London for the vast majority of my adult life but I am still Scottish. I personally think it would be a big mistake leaving. Scotland I do not think we realise how much money pays for eg a simple thing like free parking at hospitals and I believe that care is free when one needs to go into a care home. Practical issues but the money comes from somewhere.

My father was Scottish born and bred but chose to live in England.
I can honestly say that if the Scots want to be independant i feel they could/would lose people who holiday there as i believe would Wales would too.
A lot of there income come from holiday makers,but no doubt i will be shouted down for that comment.
And lemongrove you made a top point.