Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

I don’t think we saved countries in Europe from themselvesbut from Nazi Germany under Hitler.

Um, you know the UK didnt do that alone, right??

Great post *Lady Honoria" .

He was the Maids grandfather I think ,To be honest Independence isn't about the past its about moving forward to a better future ...better then we can expect as a poor relation...as we have been labeled ..of England
.We aren't a Poor relation and we are perfecty capable of running our own affairs FOR Scotland by people who live work and contribute to Scotland NOT by 533 English MP's who can over rule every and any proposals we have for our future .Independence is NORMAL

As the unofficial anthem (or rather, one of them) has it, "those days are gone now, and in the past they must remain".

I'm English-born, a Woollyback from the Wirral. I lived most of my first 60 years in England and only came here to Glasgow in retirement, but I feel right at home here. What strikes you first of all, after just a few weeks here, is how very different it is in feel, subtleties of everyday life, and even differences in law that can possibly catch you out (though you aren't likely to get into deep trouble) which make you feel that this is distinctly a different country in the way that Wales isn't.

More alarming is to realise, when you watch or read the London-based media, that there's very little about Scotland in 'national' news and general interest content. It's only when you've been here a while that the implications sink in of London newwsreaders saying "The north" when they mean Manchester, which is three hours on the train ~south~ of here - Glasgow is in the south of Scotland too, there's an awful lot of north to go to from here.

It's hard not to sympathise when Scots feel like they are a quaint afterthough, all tartan, shortbread and pipes and not a modern country the size of Denmark or New Zealand and just as capable of making its own way in the world as they do. After all, in the course of human history it's not that long since Scotland was a proud, independent nation. How many English people know that at Agincourt Scotland was on the other side? Nobody ever taught me that. Vive la vielle alliance! Alba gu brath!

So that's why, to return to that song, many Scottish people are feeling "that we can still rise now, to be the nation again that stood against him".

Actually I think that it was Alexander III falling off his horse that started all this trouble ?. He was on his way to see his young wife through a stormy night when he was thrown off his horse and died. When the Maid of Norway died, the Scots nobles decided to ask Edward I of England who he thought should be king of Scotland. I can't remember how he was related to Scotland but he quite fancied it for himself and it all went downhill from then on!

MaisieD as you seem to espouse all things Scottish

I don't. I just think that they are welcome to be independent if that's what they want. And I don't mean that in an aggressive way. I like Scotland and I like the Scottish people I've met.

I'm not deeply attached to The Union

The maid of Norway was a tragic story. She was the only child of the king of Norway and his Scottish wife, and was the only surviving decendant of Alexander 111 of Scotland inheriting the Scottish crown when she was just 3 years old. She was betrothed to Edward of Caemarfon, son of Edward 1st of England and finally set out for her new country in 1290 but died in Orkney aged 8.

GrannyRose15

MaizieD

Then tell me about all the wars fought on our island by continental forces in the interim. None.

Sorry to have to disabuse you of that idea, MaizieD, but there was a strong contingent of French forces who fought at the battle of Lincoln in 1217.

And they almost won.

Thanks. Mediaeval history isn't quite my period.

But what fun....

The English barons invited the French over.

So, it's a bit of an oddity. French attempt at conquest or internecine warfare?

www.battlefieldsofbritain.co.uk/battle_lincoln_1217.html

Gifted I beieve by a King who married his daughter off to an early Scottish King...now I'm really digging deep into my memory ..The Maid of Norway she was nicknamed but I cant tell you what her real name was or what her Fathers kingdom was

The Jacobite army wasn't Scots , or just Scots .the Jacobite cause was for the crown of England too.The Bonnie Prince wanted the Stuart crown back for the whole UK .His army of Scots was only because thats where he gained most support .I think they got as far as Durham ,not altogether sure as I've never been a royalist and didn't study the Jacobite rebellion .

I have been led to believe a lot of the clans who fought with Charlie thought he was after the Scottish throne and were unhappy when they discovered they were just being used for his own purpose and not the restoration of Crown and Parliament in Edinburgh .Probably someone who knows better will come along and correct me.

Are Orkney and Shetland part of Scotland? Were they part of Alba?

MaizieD

Then tell me about all the wars fought on our island by continental forces in the interim. None.

Sorry to have to disabuse you of that idea, MaizieD, but there was a strong contingent of French forces who fought at the battle of Lincoln in 1217.

And they almost won.

GrannyRose15 Alba is an old name for Scotland.

Battle of Trafalgar and battle of Waterloo. I watched an interesting programme on HMS Victory and we came very very close to being taken over by Napoleon if it had not been for Nelson and Wellington. There is a story of French troops landing in Wales but were thwarted by the ingenuity of the Welsh ladies who marched out wearing their National costume with pointy hats which scared them off.
Bonnie Prince Charlie got as far as Derby in 45. If only he had kept going we would have had a Stuart back on the throne.

MaisieD as you seem to espouse all things Scottish I thought you might be pleased with their victory yesterday. Idk who was the best team as I didn’t watch it but they won. Always had a soft spot for the Scots even though I am a Sassenach and I don’t think the English are better than the Scots nor do I look down on them in any way. If anything I expect them to look down on me! As it is we get on. Would be a dreich day otherwise.

What makes a Scot? Wanting to be one.

I fully appreciate your point of view, Alegrias1, but it does make discussion of the arguments rather futile, I'd say.

Elegran

What do you call recent?

Kenneth McAlpin was reputed to be king of Scotland from about 843 or 848, but was really King of the Picts. The title "king of Alba" is not used until the time of Kenneth's grandsons, Donald II (889–900 ) and Constantine (900–943).

After the MacAlpin dynasty came Duncan 1 (1034–1040 ) who featured in Shakespeare's MacBeth, and his heirs, then subsequent dynasties until the crowns of Scotland and England were merged after elizabeth 1 died without a successor.

Who was the first King of all England? When was that?

Alfred the great 848 – 899 AD is often credited with being the first king of England although he was in fact only king of Wessex and not the part of England in which I was born.
I suppose to be absolutely sure you are talking about all of the England we know today as England you have to date it from William 1st who became king in 1066.

And, yes, that is what I meant by "relatively recently".

But what I was wondering was did the king of Alba rule over all of what we now know as Scotland?

Scotch is for things you eat or drink. And maybe corners. And terriers.

It's an Early Modern English contraction of "Scottish" and was mostly used in England.

You can call us what you like, but don't expect an answer.

What is wrong with calling people from Scotland 'Scotch'? After all, we have Scotch Whisky, Scotch Eggs and Scotch Bonnet etc.

Elizabeth 1, the "virgin queen" didn't have a direct heir either

She wasn't even 'legitimate' in the eyes of some...

But you're right. The crowns were peacefully united until James II put his foot in it...

(Goodness, isn't history fun.. )

Also they weren’t adverse to nipping over here to conquer us. That’s how England got William the conqueror

Still rankles with you does it, 1,000 years later?

and then had to fight off Napoleon.

Military historians of that period would say that we were never in any real danger of being invaded by Napoleon.

(You forgot the Scots, who got as far as Carlisle in 1745)

Then tell me about all the wars fought on our island by continental forces in the interim. None.

Whereas Europe was riven by wars for centuries. In which we were happy to get involved if we saw some benefit to us. Then return to our nice peaceful island...

Anyway you should be happy today that Scotland beat England at Twickenham

I am English. Supposedly of a nation of reverence for sportsmanlike behaviour and 'may the best team win'. Scotland was best on the day. Why should that please or worry me?

Avalon posted ^Also they weren’t adverse to nipping over here to conquer us. That’s how England got William the conqueror and then had to fight off Napoleon^" William believed that he had been nominated as next king, so he had an excuse to come and claim his kingdom. Meanwhile a separate attack in the north by Harald Hardrada from Norway, with a similar agenda, saw Harold's forces rushing up there to fend that off so they were in the wrong place when William and co arrived and they had to rush back again.

A bit of a lack of forward planning by Edward the Confessor, who apparently was too religious to beget an heir or make clear his opreferences, and so precipitated the invasions. Lesson - sort out the succession!

Elizabeth 1, the "virgin queen" didn't have a direct heir either, which was what united the crowns of England and Scotland, peacefully in that case.

MaizieD

25Avalon

When we fought in Europe in WW1 and WW2 it was to liberate them.

Completely missing the point, Avalon . And displaying the patronising 'we saved them from themselves' rubbish that has tainted our relationship with Europe.

It's time we bloody well got over it. Which was my whole point about why I was happy to join in the first place and devastated by leaving.

Am I MaisieD? I was responding to your comment that “ we nipped across to fight wars WITH various bits for centuries then retreated to our island again.”
Also they weren’t adverse to nipping over here to conquer us. That’s how England got William the conqueror and then had to fight off Napoleon.
I don’t think we saved countries in Europe from themselvesbut from Nazi Germany under Hitler.

Anyway you should be happy today that Scotland beat England at Twickenham yesterday. The first time since 1983.

the enmity between the Scots and English goes back centuries with the Act of union of Scotland and England with Scottish MP’s voting to join Great Britain.

Goes back a lot further than that....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath

The letter asserted the antiquity of the independence of the Kingdom of Scotland, denouncing English attempts to subjugate it.

Furthermore I was born English but have Welsh/Southern Irish/Scottish roots as do the majority of people in the United Kingdom

everyone , N Irish ,Welsh, Scottish and English should all have a say as to devolution, personally as an Englishman let the Scots have independence, the enmity between the Scots and English goes back centuries with the Act of union of Scotland and England with Scottish MP’s voting to join Great Britain. Read this from travel Scotland, and nothing has changed over 300 years as Scotland was the poor man of Europe and yet again and would be worse off ,with the EU controlling their exonomy, defence etc etc, but I for one say let them have independence, democracy is key here, if needs be let the Northern Irish have a say on independence or re-unification with the south. As someone has said though in the present day all efforts should be put into the covid and economy, and not to further their own agenda, look at the EU and the vaccine spat. Boris did well to get the Brexit deal done, albeit with problems to come so the government can concentrate on the epidemic.
www.scotland.org.uk/history/act-union