Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

My mother was Scottish. She met my dad in wartime Belgium and spent the rest of her life living in England. She was always a Scot above all.

What makes a 'Scot'?

My niece and nephew, born and raised in Scotland, of English parents, consider themselves to be Scottish.

Interesting post from GrannyRose15 about what defines a Scot. I don't think the borders issue is relevant, because the borders we have today are the ones that are relevant in any discussion of independence.

But as for the definition of a Scot…. I have traced my family tree back 8 generations and all were born in Scotland except for one random Irishman. DH was born in another country but his family moved to Scotland in the Sixties. We both consider ourselves Scots. DSiL however, was born in England and moved to Scotland as a baby. Not only does she consider herself English, she considers her adult children to be English, although they were born and educated in Scotland and have worked in this country all their lives. She believes they have "English blood" and was convinced they would all be sent "home" if Scotland got independence in 2014.

What makes a Scot? Wanting to be one

If the Scots get independence how much of the UK national debt will they take with them? It could be calculated in various ways (per capita, acreage, share of the economy). I haven't seen this discussed anywhere.

25Avalon

When we fought in Europe in WW1 and WW2 it was to liberate them.

Completely missing the point, Avalon . And displaying the patronising 'we saved them from themselves' rubbish that has tainted our relationship with Europe.

It's time we bloody well got over it. Which was my whole point about why I was happy to join in the first place and devastated by leaving.

So in terms of ancient independent kingdoms Scotland (Donald II (889–900 ) and Constantine (900–943). ) and England (Athestan Athelstan (c. 895 - 939 AD) ) are about parallel

Having read this thread quite closely as it is a subject of interest to me, I have realised that, as with most complex subjects, everyone can quote facts and figures to support their own argument. These arguments are most often based on a deep seated feeling of ‘self’, of belonging, often deep rooted and stemming from one’s background. No amount of rational argument can change these feelings. Today’s society is so complex that any major changes have repercussions that are so widespread and often unintended, as we have discovered with leaving the EU and also with many policy changes in national government. I feel that Scotland splitting from the UK would have similar unforeseeable consequences for all involved.
Maybe we should all try to understand and respect each other’s feelings - discussion can help us understand these but most will never really change their instinctive, very strong, feelings on the subject.

When we fought in Europe in WW1 and WW2 it was to liberate them.

Who was the first King of all England? When was that?

According to the BBC it was Athelstan (c. 895 - 939 AD), grandson of Alfred the Great.

www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/athelstan.shtml

Oh, come on! Dredging up 300y old history (and some more) is ridiculous. Scotland being bankrupt at the beginning of the 18th C is irrelevant to the present.

(And we cut off two Scots monarchs' heads. Don't forget Charles was king of Scotland, too)

I wouldn't be as distraught about Scottish independence as I am about leaving the EU. For a start, Scotland is physically part of our island and we've been peaceful neighbours and friends for nearly 300 years. I don't see why that shouldn't continue.

Not like the mainland of Europe where we've nipped across to fight wars with various bits for centuries, then retreated to our island again. I liked the fact that we were becoming really part of Europe and not likely to fight there again. And no amount of protestations of 'loving Europe but not the EU' convinces me that what we now have is a substitute for being closely involved.

What do you call recent?

Kenneth McAlpin was reputed to be king of Scotland from about 843 or 848, but was really King of the Picts. The title "king of Alba" is not used until the time of Kenneth's grandsons, Donald II (889–900 ) and Constantine (900–943).

After the MacAlpin dynasty came Duncan 1 (1034–1040 ) who featured in Shakespeare's MacBeth, and his heirs, then subsequent dynasties until the crowns of Scotland and England were merged after elizabeth 1 died without a successor.

Who was the first King of all England? When was that?

The SCOTCH? All credibility out the window there......

As a Yorkshire lass I do have some sympathy for Scottish independence because I, like many others in the UK, feel that our country is too Londoncentric. I do think though that this is a problem we should be able to solve without breaking up the Union. I would hate to see Scotland go.

What intrigues here is the question of identity. How do you define a Scot, and how do you define Scotland. Isn't it true that what we now call Scotland (and the area that would become an independent nation after a yes vote) was relatively recently a collection of separate kingdoms? and that the border between England and Scotland hasn't always been where it is today?

Many posters are sure they are Scots, just as I am sure I am from Yorkshire, but whereas my family tree tells me I am mostly English (not just Y) and I only have to go back 200 years to find an Irish connection.

paddyanne, the scotch engineered their bankruptcy themselves.

Jaberwok

Greenland, independence from Denmark, 1st May, 1979. Joined EU in 1973, withdrew in 1985 over fishing (!!) dispute.

Norway. Independence from Sweden gained in 1905.

Iceland , became an independent republic in 1944.

I think you'll find that these countries are closely aligned to the EU through being in the EEA. It is a status that was proposed for the UK but rejected as we wanted to be fully independent of the EU after Brexit.

So, I would reject your claim that they are "fully independent" in terms of what is being discussed here.

Not sure where Greenland fits in, but have heard it said that when the EU shouts "Jump!" Norway is the first to say "How high?" even though she does not have a say the making of EU rules.

Still waiting for your sources paddyanne. Incidentally, if Scotland wants independence I don’t see why they shouldn’t get it, if they get a big enough majority.
It’s difficult when when one vote showed they didn’t want independence, so another vote is called for. What happen if independence wins next time. Will that be claimed as the definitive vote or will the losing side call for a decider?

that bankruptcywas engineered by England Kapitan maybe check facts before throwing silly comments in the ring .
Independence is NORMAL .

Not forgetting you chopped our Queens head off ...lol

Lets not forget that the Act of Union came about because in 1707 Scotland was bankrupt. Maybe, if pushed too far, Boris will blow the dust off the dusty pages of the draft Alien Act.

Sorry Casdon.
Yes, Alegrias1 has explained it better.

Agreed Casdon.

No, you will not tempt me UG! ??????? ? ?

Oh go on Alegrias .... mention THE RUGBY‼️
It was well deserved according to Himself. They didn’t let England into the game (apparently).

Yes, that’s what I understand too Alegrias1, it’s the same here, so as I read Dustyhen2010 statement, it wasn’t strictly true.

The way I understand it Casdon is that the Barnett Consequentials are at least partly based on a proportion of the NHS England budget, so if that is cut then the Barnett Consequentials are. Scotland can spend its funding any way it chooses, but a reduction in the NHS England budget will lead to less overall funding being available for Scotland.

DustyHen2010 I don't agree that the benefits around free tertiary education, free social care etc. are due to us being in the Union, I believe that they are a result of the priorities of the Scottish Government, acting on behalf of the people.

However I do think that for some people the prospect of the stability of staying in the Union is a good reason for rejecting independence, and I'll not argue with that. I think too that some people feel more British than Scottish, and who am I to argue with them?

In answer to that, and some of the points UG raised, I'm willing to give up that potential for stability for the chance to build our own country. The prospect of deciding on our own currency, and how our defence will work, and what our priorities should be, are more attractive to me that the status quo.

The Royal family will stay UG, no chance of a republic here. Yet

Anyway, I'm in a good mood. (Do not mention the rugby. Do not mention the rugby. )

FarNorth on a point of accuracy, health is devolved to the Scottish Government isn’t it, I know that’s the case in Wales?

It is included in the total allocation, and the proportion spent on health as opposed to other priorities is then decided by the Welsh Government.