Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

I'm intrigued. What 'other things' do you have in mind, Casdon?

I’m thinking slightly further ahead than that. Please don’t think I’m opposed to Scottish independence, I’m not - I just think other things will happen soon.

I think there are some radical changes on the way both here and in Europe.

As the current 'radical change' in the UK is moves to reduce devolved powers I don't see it changing the mind of the Scots towards remaining in the union.

The cynic in me thinks everything will keep on changing though MaizieD. There’s a general dissatisfaction in the whole of the UK at the moment and I think there are some radical changes on the way both here and in Europe. It remains to be seen whether the credibility of any of the parties, including the SNP will hold - I think we will be in a different place in 5 years time, and maybe Scotland will vote for independence and maybe it won’t..

The Scots showed in the referendum that they weren’t interested in independence ( the so called once in a generation one) yet the SNP are still the majority party.
It’s not so simple after all.

You're right, it's not so simple.

Everything has changed since 2014.
The Scots were told that independence would mean leaving the EU. As they voted to remain in the EU two years later it seems fairly obvious that the prospect of leaving it in 2014 was a significant factor in their vote.

Since then, we have left, against their will. This is also a significant factor. Support for Indie and 'rejoining' has been steadily growing over the past 4 years. I would imagine even more so now they've seen the calamitous effect on their fish export industry (and no doubt others which are caught by the non-tariff barriers)

As for the 'once in a generation' guff. Fancy believing that

Especially when you've recently voted the for the ultimate consummate liar...

Wheniwasyourage

Sorry! I misunderstood your post.

It's okay. We all do it from time to time. If this was visual we would see the puzzled look on the other persons face and adjust what we made of what they said and no one would think twice about it. I'm sure that would save a lot of crossed wires

So those who, when asked, wanted to keep the status quo voted against independence, but those who turned out to vote for the party of their choice wanted the SNP and were more motivated to do so. The SNP/Independence voters and canvassers were clearly more active than the other parties, who need to become more relevant and more attractive. That doesn't mean being a reflection of the same parties as exist south of the border.

FarNorth

lemongrove

It could only realistically be voted out (SNP) when the question of independence has finally been put to bed.

SNP gets a lot of votes from Scots voters.
If the majority of Scots voters decide they aren't interested in independence, they won't vote SNP.

Simple, really.
It's not some kind of plot by SNP that no-one can foil.

The Scots showed in the referendum that they weren’t interested in independence ( the so called once in a generation one) yet the SNP are still the majority party.
It’s not so simple after all.

Sorry! I misunderstood your post.

Wheniwasyourage

If you mean who decided on the PR system used in Scotland, PippaZ, it was Labour who were in power in the UK when the Scottish Parliament was set up in its modern form, not the Tories.

That wasn't what I was referring to Wheniwasyourage but I do like a good fact. Thankyou

Mollygo

I have no idea whether Conservatives ever asked for proportional representation, but if they did, it certainly wasn’t whilst they were in power. I can’t find evidence of Labour or other parties supporting the idea when they were in power either. Liberals certainly didn’t include PR under their reforms when they were last in power.
There is lots of evidence about support for PR by Labour currently. See varian above, but they’re not currently in power.
I said ‘it seems to be the party not in power’ and ‘as long as I can remember’ it has been so.
You said above, ‘there are groups who have been wanting it as long as you can remember’ -does your memory extend to identifying whether those groups want it when they are in power.
As to being economical with the truth, if you mean me, I don’t understand what I’ve done to incur such rudeness from you.
If you mean politicians from any party, whether in power or not, I’ll support your point of view.

Now I thought the Conservatives were in power, with the help of the Liberal Democrats, in 2011 Mollygo.

Fact: The United Kingdom Alternative Vote referendum, also known as the UK-wide referendum on the Parliamentary voting system was held on Thursday 5 May 2011

As I said, they offered a bastardised system of PR and, what I did not say as I thought those of you who are so sure about these things would remember, they also told us it would be too difficult for our little brains.

lemongrove

It could only realistically be voted out (SNP) when the question of independence has finally been put to bed.

SNP gets a lot of votes from Scots voters.
If the majority of Scots voters decide they aren't interested in independence, they won't vote SNP.

Simple, really.
It's not some kind of plot by SNP that no-one can foil.

Lemongrove why would population size matter?
Doesn't the UK government have the sense to allocate resources per head of population?
If not, it's the UK government you should be castigating.

If you mean who decided on the PR system used in Scotland, PippaZ, it was Labour who were in power in the UK when the Scottish Parliament was set up in its modern form, not the Tories.

I have no idea whether Conservatives ever asked for proportional representation, but if they did, it certainly wasn’t whilst they were in power. I can’t find evidence of Labour or other parties supporting the idea when they were in power either. Liberals certainly didn’t include PR under their reforms when they were last in power.
There is lots of evidence about support for PR by Labour currently. See varian above, but they’re not currently in power.
I said ‘it seems to be the party not in power’ and ‘as long as I can remember’ it has been so.
You said above, ‘there are groups who have been wanting it as long as you can remember’ -does your memory extend to identifying whether those groups want it when they are in power.
As to being economical with the truth, if you mean me, I don’t understand what I’ve done to incur such rudeness from you.
If you mean politicians from any party, whether in power or not, I’ll support your point of view.

I'm with paddyanne on this one. When people talk about Nicola/the SNP always going on about independence, they forget that's what they got elected for. As though they were foisting something on the Scottish populace that nobody wants. Over 50% of the seats in our parliament are held by independence-supporting parties in a system that was designed to prevent majorities.

The d'hondt system was invented to stop any prty having a majority win.The SNP however did win a majority ..not the last election the one before Lemongrove you do understand that they are democratically ELECTED by the people of Scotland who KNOW that core policy is Independence ?
I we didn't want them we wouldn't vote for them.So maybe a wee bit of respect for OUR choice..or does democracy only count when its tories being voted for in England?

It might teach them to work together instead of against each other.

When did the majority of UK voters ever support either the Tory Party or the Labour Party?

If democracy means majority rule and no single party gets the majority of votes then surely two or more parties which in total represent the majority of voters must co-operate and govern in coalition.

Anything else is undemocratic - a sham democracy, not a true democracy.

Mollygo

It always seems to be the party not in power that wants proportional representation. The urge to implement it dies away if they have won an election.

Is that true. I don't remember the Conservatives every actually wanting PR. Isn't that why they offered the bastardised version when they felt they had to allow a vote? Equally there are groups who have been wanting it for as long as I can remember.

Too easy to make comments that are there to please those who only want their own opinions re-enforced. I will be happy to say you are right if you can give some references to your post.

Being economical with the truth. Now who did that?

Yet another good argument for Bunning our undemocratic FPTP system.

It always seems to be the party not in power that wants proportional representation. The urge to implement it dies away if they have won an election.

No. lemongrove, like any other party, the SNP can only be voted out when there is someone else worth voting for, which is not the case at the moment. I'm sure that if Scottish Labour were not the pathetic branch office that they are, they would do a lot better.

Labour now backs proportional representation for executive elections. Next stop: PR for Westminster

www.electoral-reform.org.uk/labour-now-backs-proportional-representation-for-executive-elections-next-stop-pr-for-westminster/

It could only realistically be voted out (SNP) when the question of independence has finally been put to bed.