Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

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Casdon

Elegran does Scotland currently provide water to England, I couldn’t see any evidence, and I’d be interested to know?
I know Wales does, 133 billion litres a year are committed in the Welsh Water licence to provide for the needs of Birmingham. The reservoirs are near where I live.

I know that this is nothing to do with Scotland but as it came up in the Times today I thought that after reading casdon’s post
it may be interesting.
So the area round Lagos is having a problem with their water supply.
My dad in the Lagos area before independence. He’s on a water pipe laying project in 1959. No problem then.
I’m not suggesting that Scotland is anything like Nigeria and will probably never run out of water but I thought it was interesting that it came up today.
Better together.

It is time to compare voting systems and not just keep the bad system that we currently have.

www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/types-of-voting-system/

Katie59

There is zero chance of changing to a PR system because neither Tories or Labour want it.
If it were to happen, the UK would have a government in continual flux with leaders changing most years just like Italy or Australia. Just like Theresa May had, no majority to do anything, hamstrung by extremists on both sides

I think we have all too recently seen, something that many would have said had a zero chance of our country changing, happen.

Obviously we might expect lies to be told and some of our worst characteristics appealed to but maybe the next time it wouldn't need such underhand tactics. We can but hope.

So one one hand we can't have PR because of the instability it causes with things changing all the time.

On the other hand, the PR system in Scotland has resulted in a government that people say will never be voted out.

What am I missing?!?!?

Of the 43 European countries, 40 use some form of proportional representation.

The democratic countries of the world regard proportional representation as an excellent idea, which is one reason why they do so much better that autocracies, dictatorships and sham democracies like the UK.

Katie59

There is zero chance of changing to a PR system because neither Tories or Labour want it.
If it were to happen, the UK would have a government in continual flux with leaders changing most years just like Italy or Australia. Just like Theresa May had, no majority to do anything, hamstrung by extremists on both sides

Excellent point.??
Any administration needs some time to plan and put it’s policies in place.PR is a terrible idea.

FarNorth

Dustyhen if Westminster is providing those things to Scotland, why is it not providing them to England also?

A little matter of population size!
I doubt the population of Scotland is any more than Greater London.

www.electoral-reform.org.uk/campaigns/electoral-reform/

Saying that PR would never happen because neither the Tories or the Labour Party want it illustrates perfectly why we should have it.

This should not be about two well funded parties serving the interests of their funders and being able to gain a majority of seats on the basis of a minority of votes - what has been termed "an elective dictatorship".

There are many countries which have changed from an undemocratic FPTP system of elections, and as far as I know there has never been a democratic country which changed to the sham democracy of FPTP.

Scotland hasn't voted for a majority tory govermnt for well over 60 years mcurrently they are polling at 16% down from Ruth Davidsons 22% which was apparently a SURGE from Thatchers "disastrous" 24% in the 80's ,Yet look how many years we've had to live under tory rule .THIS is not democracy.Independence is NORMAL .

It would depend upon the type of system. I have no problem with leaders being hamstrung - it would save vanity projects such as HS2.

There is zero chance of changing to a PR system because neither Tories or Labour want it.
If it were to happen, the UK would have a government in continual flux with leaders changing most years just like Italy or Australia. Just like Theresa May had, no majority to do anything, hamstrung by extremists on both sides

That's what I was saying

At least Scotland hangs onto some welfare state principles...

MaizieD

I find casting doubts on the competence of anyone to run Scotland to be quite ironic in view of the incompetents presently supposed to be running the UK...

I am afraid I don't have much faith in those south of the border either!

I'm in agreement with Dustyhen2010 that we need a proper system of PR for the whole of the UK. Having been without internet access since Saturday I've only just read this thread. It seems to me that there is so much passion on here that could be directed towards campaigning for PR.

Since 1922 the Tories have only had a majority in excess of 50% in two elections. Labour never. In all other elections the combined votes of the other parties exceeded that of the Tories. I for one have been annoyed that we have been ruled by a minority government even when it was the Labour Party in power. In the last election the Tories got 43.6% of the vote and the combined Lib Dem and Labour vote was 43.7%. Yet this resulted in Tories getting 365 seats and the other 2 main parties only 214 seats. This is manifestly inequitable.

It is no wonder that many Scots want to leave the Union when there is little chance of the voices of the majority being heard.

I find casting doubts on the competence of anyone to run Scotland to be quite ironic in view of the incompetents presently supposed to be running the UK...

The economic argument against independence is usually based on the annual GERS statement.

There are reasons to believe that this statement gives a false picture of Scotland's economic status.

Richard Murphy explains here why he thinks it's not a true picture. (10 min video)

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/08/29/why-is-gers-crap/

73 constituency seats and 56 list ones. So yes, technically the majority are first past the post but the list ones do a good job of levelling up the minority parties.

www.electoral-reform.org.uk/is-there-proportional-representation-in-scotland/

And I say this in all seriousness - its very sad that anyone thinks that there is no-one competent to vote for in Scotland. And the "allocated" money - its not a handout. But if you think there is no-one in this country who can make a stab are governing, well I can't say anything to change your mind.

Alegrias1

Sorry, but something else just occurred to me. All those bad things - education, health, drug deaths - they're all the SNP's fault. All the good things - no university fees, free prescriptions, carers visiting your home, - are all because we are part of the Union.
I'll just leave that out there......

There have been some huge failings in areas where the SNP has full control and where policies have to be planned and implemented. Money which is allocated to Scotland has been spent for the good of all of us here and I am very grateful for that. However I think it is easier to spend money than make policies which work.

Alegrias1

Thanks for answering Dustyhen10

We've already got proportional representation in the Scottish Parliament.

Labour were in charge of Scotland for the first two terms of the parliament' existence and if they got their act together they could be again.

It is not fully proportional, the majority of seats are first past the post.
I agree re Labour. A long time since any real opposition and very hard to find anyone competant to vote for sadly, whatever political persuasion.

Sorry, but something else just occurred to me. All those bad things - education, health, drug deaths - they're all the SNP's fault. All the good things - no university fees, free prescriptions, carers visiting your home, - are all because we are part of the Union.
I'll just leave that out there......

Thanks for answering Dustyhen10

We've already got proportional representation in the Scottish Parliament.

Labour were in charge of Scotland for the first two terms of the parliament' existence and if they got their act together they could be again.

United we stand divided we fall.

Alegrias1

Why, oh why do people insist on telling everyone how terrible they think the SNP are at running the country as a reason for not wanting independence?

That's a serious question. I'd like to know

Maybe one of the silent majority can tell me.

I am not a hugely political animal. I have lived a long time and seen a lot. I do think health and education have not been handled well here and honestly can't see anyone being able to say they have. It does not look as if we are likely to ever get another party leading at Holyrood or any real opposition unless proportional representation occurs. The SNPs main aim is to get independence for Scotland. They would be the ones involved in trying to implement it. Sadly they can't seem to improve the areas they are able to work with so what hope would there be for any good outcome if Scotland was independent. While independence may sound like a lovely idea it is not practical. We would not have streets paved in gold. I think we need to pull together rather than apart.