Does this government see something positive in us having Covid in the country?

Am confused Callistomon, which professor.? June Roberts or June Andrews.?

Sorry typo Callistemon. iPad has a mind if it’s own.

As to what they think they can achieve, Pippa, here it is from Johnson's speech to the tory conference in October last year:

Boris Johnson branded people who have called Covid-19 a 'good crisis' a disgrace - despite having himself called it a "massive opportunity".

In October, the PM told activists at the virtual Conservative Party Conference they should use the pandemic to "short circuit" the country and impose a right-wing agenda of tax cuts and reduced support for the unemployed.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-slams-people-calling-23476206

People quoting Lord Falconer should get the quote correct.

Referring to the constant changes in covid legislation he said that covid was a 'gift for lawyers'.

It was a Government instruction to return patients to care homes not an NHS decision.

However to be fair to the Governments of all the nations in the UK at the beginning of the first wave of the pandemic there were many, many more unknowns about COVID than there are now, and there was huge concern that the number of admissions would completely overwhelm the NHS, hence the planning and opening of field hospitals, extra capacity etc. moving patients out of the system to creat capacity for new admissions became an absolute priority.

COVID testing before discharge was not available at the beginning, and then only came on stream in very low numbers of tests per day until the pathology testing capacity was available. PPE was also very difficult to find.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and it’s easy now to criticise the decisions that were made in March and April, but I’m not sure that criticism is justified, I think the whole world was blindsided by the speed and ferocity of the pandemic.

I am not supporting the Governments in that I think they have all made some major errors in not going into lockdown sooner, lack of PPE etc etc, but I’m reserving my anger for that rather than thinking there was a hidden agenda to reduce the number of older people in the care system.

Culling the old and sick has already saved the Exchequer £millions.

Crashing the economy and causing massive unemployment will make people feel their hard earned rights are less important than being in work so they won't argue when weekends, overtime payments, sick pay, holiday pay and health and safety are compromised/done away with in order to 'create more jobs'. Wages and conditions will plummet because there will be so many people chasing each job. Zero hours contracts will become even more common.

Hedge fund operators had a successful Brexit because they bet against the GBP and sure enough crashing out the way we did with this cobbled deal caused the GBP to lose value. No doubt they're having just as much success with the pandemic.

A year later, with one of the highest covid death tolls in the world, this buccaneering approach looks thoughtless and infantile.

But then, even more why act the way they are? There must be some purpose to it, some political reward. I know there are members of the Conservative back bench who are asking the government to run this on a loose rein but what is the outcome they hope to achieve by doing so? I feel it must be staring me in the face and I am being obtuse. There is a "programme" they are working to (surely) and I am just not seeing it.

Casdon...was the whole world blind sided. New Zealand didn't seem to blindsided. In fact they acted quickly and dealt with the situation far more successfully than we did. Even poorer countries like Vietnam are doing better than us because they reacted immediately rather than waiting to see what happened when the scientists were telling them to act.

In October, the PM told activists at the virtual Conservative Party Conference they should use the pandemic to "short circuit" the country and impose a right-wing agenda of tax cuts and reduced support for the unemployed.

I missed that Maizie, while I was typing. At least he is saying he has a plan in that. With the possible numbers of unemployed though, I would think it might rebound.

PippaZ

^A year later, with one of the highest covid death tolls in the world, this buccaneering approach looks thoughtless and infantile.^

But then, even more why act the way they are? There must be some purpose to it, some political reward. I know there are members of the Conservative back bench who are asking the government to run this on a loose rein but what is the outcome they hope to achieve by doing so? I feel it must be staring me in the face and I am being obtuse. There is a "programme" they are working to (surely) and I am just not seeing it.

I think the Mirror article I quoted from, and vampirequeen's post at 13.26 sets it out pretty explicitly.

Or, you could try reading the Baker Street Herald stuff

bakerstreetherald.com/2020/09/case-1-the-tabula-rasa/

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and it’s easy now to criticise the decisions that were made in March and April, but I’m not sure that criticism is justified, I think the whole world was blindsided by the speed and ferocity of the pandemic.

I think that is a reasonable view and I believe I thought it at the time although they continued long after they knew the problems. But I would truly rather understand why they do some of the things they are still doing than blame them for areas where the country was not prepared (although they were the government who took away the layers of preperation).

For me, as soon as Cummings started his goings, it was clear how this was going to play out.

It quite horrifying but why would they not be using it to impose their idea of government, I suppose. Weaken your enemy first - such a shame they think the general public is the enemy though.

Yes it was I think vampirequeen, but Europe got an early battering because of the Italy/Wuhan connection, whereas the Southern Hemisphere countries saw what was happening in Europe before COVID established there. They managed it better once they knew of course!

We knew it was coming and we knew it would spread. It doesn't matter that it arrived here before the Southern Hemisphere. China had already shown that the only way to deal with it was with lockdowns and travel controls. Our scientists were saying the same thing but the government decided not to follow the example of China and the science (even though they say they always follow the science). We're an island. We could easily have closed our borders to all but essential travel by people but we let people in for the following year even though it was obviously a transmission issue. Holidays abroad could have been banned last summer but weren't so again people mixed and transmission occurred. The Cheltenham Festival should have been cancelled but wasn't which led to more mixing and more transmission. The government missed innumerable opportunities to stop or reduce transmission. The have failed dismally and now try to blame the general population and even encourage us to blame each other. They had the power. They made the mistakes. We're paying the price.

grandtanteJE65

I doubt they want to kill people off, but I bet they are glad that the covid 19 scenario is diverting attention from the post-Brexit reality!

Ain't that the truth! No government of any persuasion could have anticipated covid19, but it certainly could have been handled better. Johnson is a chancer, a buffoon ( not a loveable one), and I just cannot work out why everything has to be so 'half arsed baked with the precautions. There is little point in going back over the mistakes that have already been made, but surely, now that they have been forced into setting up quarantine hotels and limiting incoming passengers, it could be done properly? Staff should have regular checks, guests shouldn't be allowed out of their rooms willy nilly. As to the OP; I don't think there is any malice aforethought with the way covid19 and the elderly were/are being dealt with, I think it is just like everything else, poor management, right from the top.

I don’t disagree with that vampirequeen, although there is no doubt that Europe felt the impact before the Southern Hemisphere, but I don’t think there was a deliberate plan to specifically target care homes to save money.

silverlining48

Am confused Callistomon, which professor.? June Roberts or June Andrews.?

I'm sorry, I have no idea why I typed Roberts, silverlining.
Perhaps because I know someone called Andrew Roberts!

Prof June Andrews; I remembered that there was a thread about her a year or so ago.

You are right of course Grandtante it is a very lucky cover up.

... but in terms of the quarantine hotels we are surely way too lax again. We will not learn from others and adopt best practice.
My belief is that the government don't want to be seen to do what someone else has found successful. No! We are British. We are world-beating, we are *(insert superlatives of choice).... we will always want to plow our own bloody furrow whatever the consequences.
It is just so childish.
Take advice from others who have been successful. Try it their way for once!

And before anyone comments, yes, we did buy up loads of vaccine so have got that one going pretty well. ?

A few have mentioned New Zealand. I don't think we currently have any leader of any party strong enough to do what the NZ PM did:

At the start of February, New Zealand immediately implemented a ban on arrivals from or via China. Any NZ citizen returning from the country had toself-isolate for 14 days on arrival. NZ’s first covid case was on 23 February.

They went into complete lockdown on 26 March, as the final part of a four-tier Covid alert levels system.

When it locked down, NZ had recorded only 102 cases and no deaths. When the UK locked down at around the same time, it had more than 6,500 cases and more than 330 deaths.

The country’s border was shut on 20 March to everyone except returning national citizens and residents.

Health officials used the six-week lockdown period to develop a rigorous testing and contact tracing system. Quarantine facilities for returning travellers were also improved.

They did several population testing surveys before de-escalation of the lockdown on 14 May.

Their health minister was forced to resign after a series of lockdown breaches and a widely-criticised lapse in quarantine rules.

The PM, Jacinda Ardernhas said recently said that the borders will remain closeduntil the nation is “vaccinated and protected” – likely for all of 2021.

PippaZ. You're right, the UK gov haven't learnt and they continue to flounder along. It's always "we need to see what the data says"! I've heard this from both parties. OK, data is needed but Plan A or B should be ready to be put into action when they have it. They're currently hiding under their superhero cloak (vaccine success ).
NotSpaghetti it sounds ridiculous and you're right, it is childish. It is also very frighting when considering this.

June Andrews??? That's my mam. I didn't know she was a professor. Gosh the things that mother's hide from their children

They simply refuse to learn so I am wondering if they are thinking they can achieve something while we are distracted so it's worth killing off a few thousand more?
Are You saying this is all a conspiracy. ? If it’s not an attack on the government I presume you must be- but either way it’s the same thing

It could be shere thoughtlessness and a subconcious bias towards People Like Them and a careless lack of knowledge of others and how they live/survive. We do see it an awful lot from that end of politics.

vampirequeen

June Andrews??? That's my mam. I didn't know she was a professor. Gosh the things that mother's hide from their children

Not the actress/singer/nun
That is Julie

SARS reared its ugly head in China between 2002 and 2004. A variant appeared in the Middle East (MERS) in 2012.

The WHO published a research document in October 2003 for dissemination to national and international funding bodies to enable them to review the situation and grant monies for research.

Much research has been done since then and there have been international conferences on the subject. Scientists from the UK will have attended these conferences and the information they gained will have been forwarded to the govt. But they didn't act upon it.

The UK govt wasted millions on procurement of PPE using companies set up by cronies with no knowledge of such things. They wasted more on setting up the Nightingale Hospitals which were underused because of insufficient staff numbers. The hired firms of accountants and management consultants to set up systems of track and trace which were useless and will have millions.

The NHS already had a tried and trusted system of track and trace in place - that used for contacting people who had been in contact with STD patients. But the govt chose to ignore that.

It is wrong to point the finger at the other political parties and ask what they would have done because I doubt if anyone (apart from Trump) would have handled this pandemic as badly as Johnson. People were encouraged to work from home and then later on were told that they should return to work or run the risk of losing their jobs. Everybody was encouraged to eat out in August with govt subsidies. This apparently was a cause of further outbreaks.

Johnson likes being popular and doesn't want to do anything that will make him lose that popularity hence the constant U-turns. There have been too many debacles to add to my examples above. But you all know them.

Like the OP I find myself wondering what the government agenda is. I think we are all aware of the mistakes,the lateness to act etc.
I think what has shocked me is the callousness to the vulnerable in general those who were told to shield but lost financial support when lockdown ended, the school lunch fiasco,access to laptops for vulnerable childeren. Its seems very much a pandemic where the wealthy can protect themselves including working from home etc. The poorest and most vulnerable have no choice but to work in frontline jobs with poor protection. In many ways it's a scenario of the past decade where large segments of society have had their lives impacted by cuts to services or poor working conditions. Tbh those who are unaffected rarely seem that bothered, well until they find themselves unemployed or in need of some form of social care,then they will find the safety net has disappeared.
I don't think it's a case of the cost. To make life more equitable would be a pittance compared to the billions found for failed projects led by the compatriots of the cabinet. I think it's a conscious choice that the government can make as the majority of the electorate seem just as unconcerned! Am I the only one who feels the acceptance of food banks and their massive growth tells us all we need to know about how our society is protecting it's most vulnerable?
I dont think the government are stupid,although at times I've wondered, they just have scant regard for those most affected by the pandemic.
I have often wondered if their lacklustre approach to the virus is that due to its nature once its here it's almost impossible to eradicate? They closed down to late and quickly gave up on test and trace and seemed to pretty much ignore border control choosing the half hearted approach that has caused such a high death rate and financial destruction. Maybe once again we need to look at who has been most affected to understand their actions. They are not actively killing off groups,just doing the bare minimum to protect them.