A Labour government would have made a mess of covid too.

GrannyGravy13

PippaZ if I came across as rude, I apologise as that was not my intention.

I'm sure it's the usual of me not being able to hear if it's said sharply or with a smile on your face. All done and I'm sure we can move past it.

I have just read a Facebook post which says that Keir Starmer will be setting out his vision for Britain at 11.00am tomorrow, so I will listen to that with interest.

PippaZ that’s the main problem with online fora, we cannot see facial expressions or hear tone of voice, hence things escalate.

Onwards and upwards ??

Too true GrannyGravy13

Ilovecheese I do hope it's broadcast as I am interested to hear what he/they see as The Next Chapter for Britain. If it's not televised it's on FB from 11 a.m.

Labour has been absolutely abysmal in opposition. It is the opposition's job to oppose the government. Proper opposition is necessary for responsible government because it is only when we have one that government proposals are properly debated in parliament. This has not happened.

If they can't form a proper opposition what hope do they have in power.

This is all the evidence needed to show that things would have been worse under a Labour government.

the tone of texts can often be misinterpreted in my opinion also

keepingquiet

No one knows what Labour would have done because they have not been in power for ten years and people have forgotten what life was like before the Tories came and took all our money and blamed Labour.

When labour left power in 2010 there was no money in the coffers.

All this about Tories being good with national finance pre-Covid!
And don't forget it was Tories dipping into the National Insurance Fund that meant women had their state pension age changed. It would have been nice if men and women could have retired at 60

When labour left power in 2010 there was no money in the coffers.

Oh, FGS, GrannyRose15. That simply is not true. It has been refuted many, many, many times since 2010. The note was a JOKE. It was a joke which had been made on other occasions in the past , by other outgoing government ministers.

The primary reason that it isn't true is that no government, like the UK government, which has its own currency can ever run out of money; it can issue as much as it likes.

It is also a FACT, which will be verified by economists, that by the time the tory government took over in 2010 the economy was recovering from the Global Financial Crisis and it was the tory austerity policies of cutting public expenditure which made the recovery much slower than it should have been.

Proper opposition is necessary for responsible government because it is only when we have one that government proposals are properly debated in parliament. This has not happened.

I'm not sure how closely you monitor parliamentary debates but the most significant and complex legislation which has passed through parliament in the last year has done soo with minimal time allowed for any scrutiny or debate. This has been done by the government, which I assume you approve of, so as to avoid being called to account by anyone at all, let alone the opposition. Oppositions can only oppose in parliamentary debate when they get the opportunity.

I find your assertions a trifle lacking in real substance I'm afraid.

Why would the joke have been funny if there had been any money?

It's a common misunderstanding that a country can print as much money as it needs - Germany in the thirties, Argentina in 1998 - 2002 (inflation now 34%, possibly 50% by now), Venezuela ( inflation rate 929,290%).

Whatever the facts of the past are, one thing is certain. It's going to take years to get over the economic damage done by this government's response to Covid. Fortunately we will never know how badly the economy would have been affected by a Labour government's response.

GrannyRose15

Why would the joke have been funny if there had been any money?

It's a common misunderstanding that a country can print as much money as it needs - Germany in the thirties, Argentina in 1998 - 2002 (inflation now 34%, possibly 50% by now), Venezuela ( inflation rate 929,290%).

Whatever the facts of the past are, one thing is certain. It's going to take years to get over the economic damage done by this government's response to Covid. Fortunately we will never know how badly the economy would have been affected by a Labour government's response.

If I thought that anyone was interested in how a national economy actually works I'd write a response with links... I do like to get my economics information from economists, not the media. But the Mail and the Express trump experts every time.. So any attempt at explanation is a waste of time ?

Once again, assertions lack substance...

So do yours.

Especially when you sink to being offensive in place of any actual argument.

GrannyRose15

Why would the joke have been funny if there had been any money?

It's a common misunderstanding that a country can print as much money as it needs - Germany in the thirties, Argentina in 1998 - 2002 (inflation now 34%, possibly 50% by now), Venezuela ( inflation rate 929,290%).

Whatever the facts of the past are, one thing is certain. It's going to take years to get over the economic damage done by this government's response to Covid. Fortunately we will never know how badly the economy would have been affected by a Labour government's response.

No, it's not a common misunderstanding! A country with a sovereign currency, such as the UK, can "print" as much money as it wants. It's nonsensical economic illiteracy to claim otherwise.

One thing is absolutely certain - the economic damage to the UK economy from Brexit will far exceed damage from Covid. The government controls interest rates, so the Covid "debt" is just a figure on a balance sheet and doesn't ever need to be paid back. Most money circulates back to the Treasury anyway and money supply could be controlled with taxation. It's far more important that billions of pounds are already leaving London for Frankfurt and other financial centres and that import/export "red tape" is a disincentive for foreign investment.

GrannyRose15

So do yours.

Especially when you sink to being offensive in place of any actual argument.

No! Maizie's claims are based on facts, as explained by many economists. There are "beginner" guides to monetary theory available, if you're interested. They all explain quite clearly how money supply in a modern state works.

GrannyRose15, your statement:

'It is the opposition's job to oppose the government'

does, of course, make sense - in normal times - but right now, in the middle of a deadly world pandemic, normal rules simply don't apply.

It's more appropriate to be cooperative, supportive and far less critical, under these circumstances, surely?

Your complete misunderstanding of the economy reminds me of when Thatcher (alarmingly) compared it to a household budget.

GrannyRose15 is right. Just printing more money is far too simplistic as it leads to hyperinflation. The ones that put this forward as a solution are naive. It’s not Monopoly.

Research at the time of the last found people supported much of the Labour manifesto proposals. They didn’t like or trust Corbyn. Defence then the daily additions to the manifesto, without any prior discussions with activists canvassing.

I saw Starmer, Lisa Nandy and Rebecca LB at the Manchester hustings, Starmer and Nandy were impressive. long Bailey not in any way impressive. I would like to see a Labour government but as I posted earlier, boundary changes etc mean that’s unlikely.
This morning, media reports suggest Starmer is considering PR - good

tickingbird

GrannyRose15 is right. Just printing more money is far too simplistic as it leads to hyperinflation. The ones that put this forward as a solution are naive. It’s not Monopoly.

You and GrannyRose15 are both wrong about 'money printing'.

The examples of the hyperinflation in Zimbabwe or Weimar Republic Germany are all too often mentioned as a reason why states cannot be trusted to issue currency. However, those making these claims rarely have any in-depth understanding of what happened in Zimbabwe, Germany or any of the other hyperinflationary periods.

In reality, each period of hyperinflation happens due to a unique set of circumstances that are completely inapplicable to the UK or any of the countries where these reforms are likely to be implemented. A Cato Institute study of all 56 recorded hyperinflations found that hyperinflations only occur under extreme conditions such as war or a complete collapse in the productive capacity of a country. Hyperinflation has never been a consequence of monetary policy or politicians turning on the printing press just before an election; rather, hyperinflation is a symptom of a state that has lost control of its tax base.

positivemoney.org/2015/12/hyperinflation-how-the-wrong-lessons-were-learned-from-weimar-and-zimbabwe-a-history-of-pqe-part-2-of-8/

The real constraint on 'money printing' is the availability of resources to buy with it. If resources are scarce then prices rise and inflation follows. This is by no way the case in the UK at the moment, or for the foreseeable future.

Also, the government has 'printed' some £450 billion in QE since 2008. Have you noticed any roaring inflation as a result of that?

(It is Monopoly, really. Money is just an old established con trick... It depends on everyone believing that it has value)

Boundary changes in Wales will lose seats for labour

I listened to Keir Starmer this morning. I heard that he is going to introduce a new Government bond for people to invest the money they have saved in lockdown. This could be spent on any number of things, possibly improving infrastructure, new employment opportunities etc.
I didn't hear any other actual policies, the general tone was that we shouldn't miss the opportunity to makes things better, after the pandemic has receded.
Does anyone else have any opinion on his speech?

The connection was quite awful and kept blurring and I thought it was my eyesight! I actually asked my son if it kept blurring for him I thought what he said was sensible, we do need investment. I suspected the speech was to paint him a credible leader/option. He does appear to be genuine but that is just my opinion. I suspect my local facebook page will be frothing at the mouth though

.MaizieD Although I accept what you’re saying and the link you provided, I’m not convinced. Everything I have read from a wide range of sources states it’s not a good idea.

tickingbird

.MaizieD Although I accept what you’re saying and the link you provided, I’m not convinced. Everything I have read from a wide range of sources states it’s not a good idea.

An awful lot of people who aren't economists continue to perpetuate the myth. A web search will bring up far more people who believe it, than who disbelieve it. But once you dig down the same information, the same wording even, is repeated from site to site. I think it's become what could be termed a 'Ruling Theory'. It doesn't make it correct, though. Academic research quite often contradicts popular beliefs.

Just consider how £billions of QE in the UK since 2008 hasn't led to inflation.

It's also what Roosevelt's New Deal did in the 1930s. Which rescued the US from the worst of the 'Great Depression'

Ilovecheese
A new government bond if KS is elected.
I’ll watch with interest to see how this differs from the existing ones. I wonder if it will be better or worse than others e.g. the existing EIS government backed scheme, or current gilts.
What sort of returns and tax relief will they offer?
Will they be index linked? What sort of maturity dates will be offered?
Government bonds are currently sold to raise money for government spending, e.g. on infrastructure, future developments and things like pensions so it’s not a new idea.
I recorded his speech so I can listen again. Often what I think I heard turns out to be only part of the information so I can’t really pass an opinion yet.

I always prefer to read things as I can check back and make sure I've got it correctly.

Here's the full text:

labour.org.uk/press/full-text-of-keir-starmer-speech-on-a-new-chapter-for-britain/