Where are all the Statesmen/Great leaders?

I think there is also a nostalgia about past leaders, particularly Churchill for obvious reasons, that just doesnt reflect reality. There is a lot of rose tinted glasses when looking back.

I take your point Alegrias and understand what you're saying. In my case, let me assure you that I am just as "observational" about males. If I'm going to be offensive I'm happy to be evenhanded. Am I a misandrist for calling Boris Johnson a shambolic twat? Maybe. Most of the time I just dislike stupid, irresponsible people - is there an epithet for that?

I think you might be over thinking people's motives here. Yes the use of WJK is without doubt an insult to NS - however I'd argue that the people dishing it out have employed the thought process to say it because it refers to a woman dressing up as a man in order to be something she's not. I'd suggest it's more because she irritates them, they dislike her and are drawing a parallel with a character they feel it's legitimate to be irritated by. Their lack of articulation about it might well be part of the great white patriarchy, but it's more of an artefact of it than a machiavellian manipulation to undermine women in politics. Yesterday I referred to Dominic Raab as reminding me of Plug, a Beano character - I admit it's lazy as a political argument, but it quickly illustrated my observation that the man is hardly an intellectual giant.

Don't get me wrong, women are undermined in politics all the time, and often in the way that you cite. As you say, it was ever thus and ever will be. However I think better results come from asking people like me if they have considered that their comments might be based in some un-excavated misogyny, rather than assuming it is and instantly alienating them in order to shore up your own beliefs. Then we can have a discussion and 'I' might change my view and you may have made progress in garnering greater respect for women in politics.

I am really strict with myself about not commenting on the personal physical appearance of any politician. What matters is their behaviour and policies. I think the reference to NS being made on here ( whether in full or as an acronym) is dreadful and demeans . anyone who uses it. And yes it’s true that women in the public eye and politicians especially suffer from comments like this. We should be better than that. As for AM my understanding about Mutti is that it’s about her systems as mother of the nation not her appearance.

I agree and being told how we should approach challenging this is interesting to say the least.

Jackie Weaver definitely showed leadership qualities, within the Handforth Council meeting, which went viral.

She calmly stood her ground, when being harassed and bullied by the males at the meeting.

What a woman!

libra10

Jackie Weaver definitely showed leadership qualities, within the Handforth Council meeting, which went viral.

She calmly stood her ground, when being harassed and bullied by the males at the meeting.

What a woman!

Jackie Weaver plainly and obviously failed to do the job she had been given which was to sort out Handsworth Parish Council. She used an easy way out which admittedly was very amusing on Zoom. But the problems remain. Another parish council meeting ended acrimoniously yesterday. So was it really Well Done Jackie Weaver? (she wasn't on this one).

Sorting out the issues of that council cant be down to one person, from what I understand the issues are widespread and systemic and will take a long time to resolve, hopefully via the ballot box.
I think she demonstrated skills in responding to aggression.

NellG I’m going to continue with this conversation because I think its relevant to the discussion about leadership, especially women leaders.

Firstly, please notice that I never called you a misogynist, I called people who use the WJK thing have a misogynistic streak. You can call Boris Johnson a shambolic twat and I might or might not agree with you. But neither of those descriptions are about him being a male person, just a bad politician, so no, you wouldn’t be a misandrist if you used them. However I can’t think of a single instance in which a male politician has been called “screechy” or “strident”. They are words that are used only in relation to women and their use undermines the seriousness of the person you are talking about.

I think that the people who use the WJK thing think its funny because it refers to NS’s appearance. That may or may not be true, but they don’t use it because WJK irritates them, they use it because he’s a daft wee laddie you can poke fun at. And the fact that he’s a woman in man’s (boy’s?) clothing reinforces the dislike for a woman in political office, whether they think of it or not. For the same reason you don’t seem to think” Screechy” is sexist, they don’t think WJK is demeaning to women. And God, it’s so old…..

Similarly, I’m so over engaging with people to tell them how their attitudes are ante-diluvian and to stop characterising female politicians by gender-specific tropes. My beliefs are well shored up, thanks. Yes, maybe I’d have won you over by going into the details of how people treat male and female politicians differently and asking you to consider how you are thinking about that. But if you need telling about that, then an internet forum discussion isn’t going to make much difference.

Galaxy

I agree and being told how we should approach challenging this is interesting to say the least.

Exactly - if there were no sex ( or ethnic ) differentiation in how politicians appearances are referred to, I could ( maybe) see it as just lazy, unkind behaviour but it’s women and even more so black women who are targeted in this way. And yes I believe it’s rooted in misogyny and racism (whether conscious or unconscious).

Alegrias crossed posts - yours is better ?

And henceforth the wheat sorts itself from the chaff as the most rabid and self defeating come along and claim superiority because they can't stand being disagreed with.

Is there an epithet for the intrinsic dislike of stupid people? Oh yeah, misanthrope...

suziewoozie

Alegrias crossed posts - yours is better ?

Not too rabid?

That was a much more dignified response than I could have managed Alegrias. I think it's the lack of originality that grates with me most, for gods sake get a new joke. Its like being trapped in an episode of Bless this House or something.

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/feb/07/it-took-on-a-life-of-its-own-the-story-behind-julia-gillards-misogyny-speech?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

This article details the appalling things said about Julia Gillard ( firmer PM of Australia) .It would never have happened to a man. Neither would a male leader who was childless have that fact commented on by a political opponent. ( although of course Theresa May suffered that from one of her own female colleagues)

Former of course

NellG

And henceforth the wheat sorts itself from the chaff as the most rabid and self defeating come along and claim superiority because they can't stand being disagreed with.

Is there an epithet for the intrinsic dislike of stupid people? Oh yeah, misanthrope...

You’re a bit cross I take it?

I think Nicola Sturgeon is an excellent communicator. She can certainly talk well but I am not at all impressed with her record in government.

A really good leader should be able to talk the talk and walk the walk. Their talking ability is very important in getting them elected and we can never know how many other politicians might have done a better job but didn't get the chance.

I wasn't actually referring to you Alegrias but if you feel you want to own it I shan't argue.

Galaxy if you took the bait less often you'd retain a lot more credibility. Every. Single. Time. I assume you're happy with it as you wouldn't keep coming back for more.

suziewoozie I was wondering when you'd be along.

Now where is Fanny she was after good argument wasn't she?

This is all very familiar.

Galaxy

This is all very familiar.

And truly truly pathetic.

Another interesting thread bites the dust, Well back to the arguments thread I guess - it’s quite fun ?

Varian YOU may not be impressed by her actions but the people who she mitigates tory policy for are and low paid who get extra help are and the families with under 6 year olds who will get an extra £10 a week in these difficult times are .Even folk like me who pay a wee bit more in tax to help pay for these things are happy with her and her party..THATS why they get voted back .Thats not even looking at the green issues ,the 22 million trees planted in 2019 ,The renewable energy programme thats streets ahead of the r UK the 90,000 affordable homes built including tens of thousands of council houses.These are FACTS .You dont need to like her or think shes doing well or otherwise....the people who vote for her say it by making their mark on the ballot paper

This was published today. Time's 100 young leaders who are shaping the future. Includes Rishi Sunak and Marcus Rashford!

time.com/collection/time100-next-2021/

NellG ,so you don't live in Scotland or have a specific Scottish connection but you comment so unpleasantly on the personal attributes of Scotland's First Minister? This is a thread about being a leader and many people in Scotland consider NS to be a good one, others do not. However they do so based on actual knowledge, not throwing insults around about a person. I have friends and relatives on both sides and not one has used or would use the nasty, stereotype you used. The fact that you have to try to insult her and my country to make a point, is very telling. Just stop.

As for AM my understanding about Mutti is that it’s about her systems as mother of the nation not her appearance
I agree Suzie. I thought it was an indication of the affection and respect in which she’s held.