The fear women live with

Come on lemon grove, I must be misreading your post. In my early 30’s I’d often walk 3-5 miles home at 9pm. A friend’s daughter lives in the same area as this young murder victim . She phoned her mum to say it’s scared her from walking home early evening.
I used to stress to my teenage/early 20 year old daughters never walk home alone. They always had the emergency £10 cab fare but preferred to walk ‘because the cab drivers are sleazy ‘. This was pre the grooming scandal - pre John Warboys the cab driver who raped and murdered.
Yes of course women need to do all we can to be safe but the danger is men. Is it worse than the 70’s and 80’s Reclaim the Night marches period. I’m older so feel more vulnerable. I also wonder if increased use of pornography leaves women at greater risk.

I have wrote and deleted this post so many times but do you know women with learning disabilities are 7 mores times more likely to be sexually abused by men than women without a learning disability? The problem of male to female violence is chronic in all its forms

And with each acceptance of a restriction, the restrictions become worse. Now apparently it's the length of the walk.
I always find it interesting how uncomfortable the statistics make people. I think in terms of sexual offences it would be worth having a conversation about porn and the impact that has on behaviour and also the need to focus on the issue of consent.

For there to be a serious debate about abuse against women which most women I know have experienced to some degree, and why a women is murdered by a male every three days on average, we need to look at the structures in society that maintain it. For example sex inequality, objectification of women, beliefs about masculinity and femininity relationships and sex-roles. This would be a start.

Katie59

We are the weaker sex and vulnerable to violence in the street and in the home, there are men and some women that will take advantage of that. Nothing we say now or have ever said will change that, violence seems to get worse not better despite many campaigns.

All we can do is protect ourselves I wouldn’t dream of walking unaccompanied at night, or indeed some areas in daylight. I’ve got tremendous sympathy with this girls family and would like the streets to be safer, but they won’t,

Good post Katie?? Same here.

There are times when with all the precautions for our safety (both men and women) taken, anyone can still be dragged into a car or a house etc and attacked, and raped, or murdered, but it makes sense to do our best to avoid those situations where we possibly can, and to hell with what women ‘should’ be able to do ( in the garden of eden.)
We don’t know in this particular case what’s what, but it was reported that the victim set off on a five mile journey home.
That may not be correct of course ( it does sound a very long walk home!)

ExaltedWombat

Did you notice the woman on the radio this morning tying herself up in knots trying NOT to say most women get murdered at home (well, most women that DO get murdered)?

This isn’t what this thread is about. If you’d like to discuss where most women get murdered, you could start another thread. I’m sure lots of us have plenty to say about these kind of murders.

WWM2, I’d be surprised if there isn’t a link between the gentle, empathic men that many of us are fortunate to love and be loved by, and those men having grown up with strong (and gentle) women around them. Of course mother’s have a role, so do fathers. Their responsibility is less often the focus than the blame attached to mothers if their children behave badly.

I heard Part of a radio 5 phone in this morning, on the subject of male violence towards women. It was a bit like travelling back into the 70’s when women’s groups discussed this topic. I wish that young women were subject to less sexual harassment now, they are no safer than we were.

This thread is about violence perpetrated by men onto women. We don’t need reminding men are also raped and beaten, almost always by other men.

Did you notice the woman on the radio this morning tying herself up in knots trying NOT to say most women get murdered at home (well, most women that DO get murdered)?

PipandFinn

I'm 64 now and have lived in fear of men most of my life. I was sexually and physically abused as a child then physically abused as a women. It's only in the last couple of years that I feel I can have an opinion without my heart racing with fear (although it still does happen). In my experience a lot of men don't really like women especially strong women but i do realise this opinion stems from my awful experiences with them....

We are a family of strong women and our sons are gentle and empathetic. Not sure if there is a link?

Yes maybe we will have to introduce curfews for men. They will complain but it’s their own fault. Only kidding it’ll never happen. But lots more girls and women will be too scared to go out.

Shelagh Fogarty LBC just started - dealing with this issue and especially the wider context. Will be worth listening to I’m sure.

I was attacked twice in 1976 once by a man alone on the way back from a night out and the second time by the same man and two of his friends who happened to be outside a pub when I was walking home after leaving a friend at a bus stop. They followed me for a while as I told them to leave me alone and then dragged me into the woodland behind the flats where I lived. I was only 12 years old. I don’t like walking alone at night anywhere. Even if I am posting orders or going into a shop, I feel nervous on the way to and from my car. It’s not helpful to proclaim that women should be allowed to walk the streets without fear but this is never going to happen because little boys will always be exposed to violence and neglect and prosecutions for rape will remain low. In the meantime all we can do is avoid situations where we could be vulnerable.

My heart goes out to this poor young woman's relatives.
Rest in peace.

Women-only waiting rooms and carriages are loudly decried by feminists Not true - feminists are currently fighting hard to save women-only spaces.

I no longer go out alone walling my dogs - not solely for the fear of being attacked but more for the safety of my dogs with all the cases of dog theft on the streets and in the home.
Sorry if this is not exactly in tune with the original posts, however it is still a real threat to me and my dogs.

vegansrock

But the fact remains men are the perpetrators in the vast majority of cases - it’s men’s behaviour that needs to be addressed. Not women’s.

Not just in reply to you, but: In essence yes, but any feasible (yet unlikely) solution requires women to change too.

We are the mothers, the one's who are most often directly involved with the social conditioning of our children. We have a responsibility to look at how we bring up our male children. We can't just expect male attitudes to change without our input.

If we just go on listing how awful it is, and it is beyond horrific tbf, and by repeatedly quoting the often misused stat of the 97% we become a much part of the problem of driving this horror into the shadows as men are.

How about we start talking about how women matter on a fundamental level, rather than just constantly finger pointing at men and listing the terrible things some of them have done. Because although 97% of violent crime is perpetrated by men - 97% of men don't perpetrate crime at all. Could we not at the very least think about talking to men about their values re women, rather than just listing the things they do? We have a voice, let's use it for something better than the purpose of just being heard and aim for being understood.

I don’t think that I have ever taken part in a thread -apart from the lighthearted threads - where so many of us have experienced to a greater or lesser degree, such negative experiences.

Bad isn’t it?

What worries me as much as losing her life, but the police officer who has been arrested for murder. It would not surprise me in the least if that officer had not been complained about in the past.

The fact is that there is no winning for anyone who makes a complaint against the Thames Valley Police.(I do not know other forces so cannot comment) Each person who complains is put through the mangle and the officers, despite what they said and did, have this blanket of protection around them.

Is it possible for anyone to win a complaint against the police?

I believe from my own experiences that Thames Valley Police defend their officers no matter what. That means that no matter how bad the crime, if they think the perpetrators give an excuse for committing a crime, then they will not arrest them.

I live in fear that my neighbour. That should not happen, but because the police have refused to protect over so many years, the neighbour is getting bolder.

There must be millions of people like me, subjected to hate crime by virtue of discrimination who are left crushed and vulnerable because the police, despite knowing that there is cause to complaint, refuse to investigate their officers.
There must be millions more in this lock down situation who have cried out for help to the police for abuse, threats, vandalism and so on up and down the country, and the probability that some of those perpetrators are police officers being defended by their colleagues.

Men and women are both vulnerable to violence but in very different ways.

I have grandsons and granddaughters and I worry about them, but for different reasons. When they are little, both sexes are vulnerable to sexual predators, as the Moors murders proved. However, girls seem to be the victims in most cases. The same applies, when they grow up, to domestic violence. Men can suffer at the hands of abusive partners but the majority of the victims - including approximately one death per week - are women.

It's true that the statistics for the killing of young men are high. The killers are usually other young men, in the stupid conflicts which erupt over nothing when alcohol and bravado are involved. However, I think that the OP is right to suggest that there is a particular fear that women feel.

It's the fear of finding yourself in a lonely place, of hearing footsteps behind you, or seeing a man ahead of you on a dark street and knowing that you have to pass him. It's the fear of being alone with a man in a place where you feel trapped. It's fear based on the knowledge that, although it's rare, women do get abducted, raped and murdered. It is a fear that is fed by fiction which tells that story over and over again. It's a fear that we can't avoid passing on to our daughters and granddaughters, because we want to keep them safe.

I don't underestimate the violence that men endure, usually - but not always - at the hands of other men. However, I doubt that many men experience that fear of possible sexual predators which is common, I would guess, to practically all women. I am even more doubtful that they fear such an attack from the opposite sex.

When my children became teenagers I really worried about them when they started venturing out into the big wide world (I still do): especially my daughter. But I did read at the time that a boy/man was statistically more at risk of being murdered than a girl/woman. But I agree about the article in that we all know the feeling of dread when you hear footsteps behind you at night. I can still remember such instances over 50 years later.

4allweknow

Assaults of all kinds against women by men have been going on since time began. Not saying any violence should be condoned, we do though need to look at the numbers of populations and the relationship of the assault to try to figure if the figures are increasing as badly as we think. The media us awful at giving very frightening accounts of incidents before all the facts are established eg the recent victim travel across Clapham Common on her own at night. Later reports didn't mention that. I left a job I loved only because I couldn't put up with the groping, being trapped up against walls by the boss. There are men and women who have this terrible instinct to control and that often means by violence. I have heard mean say they will not sit near a female on public transport in case they are accused of any misdemeanour so men have fears too. Perspective is needed.

I think the debate going on now across all forms of media is about much more than physical assaults on women. They are at the end of a spectrum that starts with little girls experiencing a man exposing himself through to young teenagers bring cat called, wolf whistled, having leery comments made to them, to young women jogging or just walking along the street having disgusting comments being shouted at them from a van window, to women commuters being groped and rubbed up against on a train or tube. And that’s before we get to actual range of physical attack.

Men simply have to change their behaviour and good men have to be part of the solution otherwise they are part of the problem. And some women have to appreciate how unacceptable it is that there is much casual sexism that women and especially our younger women experience daily

This is why I spend 10 years doing and teaching karate. It gave me the confidence to walk alone at night. We owned a guest house for many years, if the door bell ever rang at night my husband always let me answer the door,he knew nobody would get the better of me easily.

It’s is very frightening. I worry about my daughters always - we can only keep our wits about us. I don’t think it’s wise to walk or run listening to music through ear plugs - you can’t hear anything I think it’s dangerous. Also why are women ‘Killed ‘ they are murdered - it’s a way of desensitising

She must have been so scared, her parents have just been mentioned on the radio, I couldnt stop thinking about the nightmare that they are living through.

Assaults of all kinds against women by men have been going on since time began. Not saying any violence should be condoned, we do though need to look at the numbers of populations and the relationship of the assault to try to figure if the figures are increasing as badly as we think. The media us awful at giving very frightening accounts of incidents before all the facts are established eg the recent victim travel across Clapham Common on her own at night. Later reports didn't mention that. I left a job I loved only because I couldn't put up with the groping, being trapped up against walls by the boss. There are men and women who have this terrible instinct to control and that often means by violence. I have heard mean say they will not sit near a female on public transport in case they are accused of any misdemeanour so men have fears too. Perspective is needed.