The fear women live with

Surely we should all take responsibilities for our safety. I live in a university city with several parks and a very large common area. People will walk on their own in these isolated spots at all times when there is no daylight. It is frightening during daylight and even worse ar night. There are accounts of people being attacked weekly. Yet nothing changes. It is not possible to make these areas safe

Sadly 'twas ever thus'. If you ever read historical novels, accounts of life in the past and read any poetry you will find that women and girls have never been safe from the fear (and reality) of men accosting, attacking, raping or abducting them.

Wealthy women had chaperones, never walked anywhere alone and only in daylight and in busy streets and of course the poorer women were always bore the brunt of it because of their need to work and not able to afford personal transport.

In many other countries the control of women has stemmed from the need to protect them from the attentions of other men and is often welcomed by the women as they feel safer in same sex groups.

It seems this is an age old problem but I agree that it is a terrible thing that we don't even feel safe taking a stroll, being in an empty street or railway compartment or being out after dusk.

It seems that many men still see women as objects or possessions and are only there to satisfy their urges or to vent their anger or frustrations upon. I was cheered to hear that some men also understand this and take steps to move aside or walk past on the other side of the road to make it easier for women

And yes, young men are much more likely (statistically) to be attacked (both my sons have suffered attacks) but they don't seem to live with the constant fear of harassment like women and girls do

Sport got sidetracked and didn't answer the question about women and fear of going out alone. I was attacked in my workplace where I had to work till 10pm alone I managed to alert a passerby and my attacker ran away. . The works policy was revised after this.
I was followed home one night but sought the help of another man walking in front of me and evaded my stalker. The man who had followed me was arrested 2 days later for raping 2 women. I have never felt safe on my own outside at night, and would never walk home by myself.
Its awful that we have to do this. This is not going to change. The only solution is a curfew on men on the streets at night, with police strolling and that's never going to happen. I taught my sons and grandsons to be aware of not alarming women on their own at night by walking behind them etc. I don't think there will ever be a solution, do would always advise women not to put themselves in danger.

So you can name one woman , but how many men? . Please don’t pretend women are an equal threat to men as vice versa.

Except that in this case the suspect is a serving police officer which may cause more disquiet.
The advice to anyone but especially women has not changed for decades now, it has always been , make sure someone knows where you are going, be aware of your surroundings and if you think someone is following you go to a public place or a shop or a house with lights on etc
I was also told to carry keys in my hand with a key between my fingers as a weapon if absolutely necessary and always look in the back seat of the car before getting in and always lock the doors and in city areas to put your handbag and valuables behind the passenger seat to stop smash and grab at traffic lights

I am not interested in reading examples of men’s experiences of violence perpetrated by other men.

So when you stated Yes men are subject to violence, but can you name a man that this happened to? Men suffer violence but largely for entirely different reasons, associated with their lifestyle etc.., did you expect everyone just to accept your version of events?

I actually find your judgement on the lifestyle of innocent male victims every bit as wrong as questioning what women wear, what perceived risks they take, etc.

WWM2 re your OP and your post above, in what way can hearing more experiences of violence against women help you to feel less troubled by it?

I ask because I have lots I'd like to say but don't want to hit the wrong note. I can certainly add to the list of lived experiences but I feel that may just increase the despair women feel as it becomes overwhelming. You said that something must be done, are you interested in thoughts on that?

There were so many numpties on Twitter saying things like, "What was she doing walking on Clapham Common?" (though she wasn't actually abducted there) as if being out and about at 9 pm made it HER fault. Also, telling women to stay off the streets is another form of potential victim-blaming, isn't it?
Always, ALWAYS, when most women are out alone they have to consider the "What if..?" factor. I never walk from the bus stop to home at night without putting keys and phone in a pocket (in case of bag theft) and an attack alarm in my hand. I hate that I feel I have to do this, and always to keep an eye on who is also on my quiet lane on way home. But you just have to.
And it's all very well to say, oh but it's rare. Of course it is but that doesn't make it any less frightening out there.

The Radio 4 discussion has provoked a much needed discussion which shifts the onus from the need for women to 'take care of themselves' to the need for men to take responsibility for their actions and attitudes which cause these assaults. This has to begin with education and challenging assumptions which begin in childhood - that girls and women are 'less than' men. Parents should not tolerate these attitudes in their sons, boys should understand that they must 'call out' such behaviour within their peer group. World wide and over thousands of years this negativity has been normalized by patriarchal societies. There is much work to do and 'Grans' can play their part.

Of course women should be able to walk safely at night; we all should, both men and women, but that is in an ideal world and we don't have that. Both Joanna Lumley and a senior woman judge, who had just dealt with an appalling case of an attack on a drunken and helpless woman, were vilified for saying that we must all take care and be responsible for ourselves. Reading some of the reports, this poor young woman had decided to walk home, a completely reasonable action, when she was in full control of herself and presumably just wanted some exercise, but she has been the truly unlucky victim of violence - how must her family feel. I too was surprised to see the alleged perpetrator named, and on the front cover of my newspaper. The article also said that currently there is nothing to link him to the victim, or indeed any evidence that she knew him. It is all so sad and ugly.

Lukasz Skaboszeski, Kevin Lee,, John Chapman. All brutally murdered by Joanna Dennehy, who would was proud of her violence and said herself that she would like to murder more men.
There are many more names of men murdered by women if you care to look.

I understand your passion WWM but it never does any cause any good to make innacurate statements,

This thread could be linked to the one about freedom for children,, did we have more?

how life here in England(UK) has changed over the last few years,, in my generation....

I grew up as a child in freedom, then.. it started,,, more than one reason why more violence.

No one has pointed out that 99% of the perpetrators of this type of violence are MEN. That is the problem. Yes young men, gay men are targets of random violence but NOT by women.

I have always been afraid of being out on my own, especially at night. As a seven year old child I was on my way to my dance class when I was stopped by a man. He was asking for directions to the train station. I was only too happy to help, and explained where it was. He was grateful and said as a thank you he would give me a gift. He then exposed himself to me and asked me to play with him. I was absolutely terrified. I ran. Fortunately he didn’t chase me, but it has stayed with me to this day. My advice is to always be careful where you go on your own, and take an alarm with you.

suziewoozie

Sheilasue

I would like to remind you that young black men are killed every day by other young black men, there is this horrific culture in this country.
My son was killed in a domestic violence situation.
Woman are beaten in their homes. Children are abused beaten and so are babies.

I really find that this post raises my hackles. I don’t need reminding of this - we are discussing the context of women and the fear of being out in the evening. I would happily discuss any of the issues you mention if you start a thread on any of them.

Absolutely. I started this thread in the hope that people could talk about women’s lived experiences with regard to every day fear of violence, death, harassment etc.

I am not interested in reading examples of men’s experiences of violence perpetrated by other men.

That needs another thread.

I live in a small town where crime is normally very low but since the lockdowns started there seems to have been a surge of random violent attacks. My neighbours were attacked randomly just walking down our street in broad daylight in a very violent, unmotivated attack. They are both in their 40s. They were hit round the head with a blunt object by soneone who said he didn't like the look of them. Nothing was taken. They needed medical attention. The man got away with it as he sped off on a bike. I feel that since the lockdowns some people have become very angry and become quite dangerous.

We moved from London to Leeds in late 1979 - the height of the Ripper, which meant from being able to walk to work and back through the park often after dark in London to not being able to go out of our door in Leeds - husband taught me basic self defence but even now am very wary especially if I hear footsteps behind me even during the daytime

60 years ago when I was 9 I was sexually assaulted and in my early 20s I was raped. I never told a sole until a few years ago when out on one of my long walks with a friend only to find out that she had an incident in her teens. A friends twin brother was raped on his way back from cubs one evening and that was about 60 years ago. This all took place in London so I cannot comment on other parts of the country. The thing is this sort of thing has always happened but in the past it was never spoken about. If my father and brothers had ever known what had happened to me they would have gone on the rampage. I now longer live in London but to this day I will not venture out alone in the dark and I fear for my 7 year old GD.

Riggie

*Yes men are subject to violence, but can you name a man that this happened to?*

Yes. A colleague's brother was killed by someone as he walked home. Nothing he had done - killer didnt know him, he was just out to kill anyone.

Was it a woman who killed him? Does your brother feel fear if he realises he is being followed by a woman at night? Does your brother always think twice about going out after dark?

There have been a few murders of young male students in Liverpool city centre.
My brother was picked on alone in town at night for no reason spent a week in hospital. Unprovoked attacks for no reason and randomly picked on.

Sheilasue

I would like to remind you that young black men are killed every day by other young black men, there is this horrific culture in this country.
My son was killed in a domestic violence situation.
Woman are beaten in their homes. Children are abused beaten and so are babies.

I really find that this post raises my hackles. I don’t need reminding of this - we are discussing the context of women and the fear of being out in the evening. I would happily discuss any of the issues you mention if you start a thread on any of them.

My DH with a wife and 2 daughters is very aware of women’s fears and if walking in the evenings (not happening at the moment as 6pm curfew here in France!) is always careful if following a woman. He’ll hang back or change pavement so as not to frighten her. I love him dearly!!!

This is so tragic, poor lady. I will admit, when this was first reported on and I read she had left a friends house around 9pm to walk home, a journey of around 50mins, my initial reaction was 'What'.....why ever didnt she get a cab but, 'Why shouldn't she have walked home alone at that time without fear or worry'. As mentioned, all woman worry about being out late at night. My WI is an afternoon one, purely for the fact a lot of its members are retired and flatly refuse to venture out in the evening as they have to go home alone.
Such a shame

I would like to remind you that young black men are killed every day by other young black men, there is this horrific culture in this country.
My son was killed in a domestic violence situation.
Woman are beaten in their homes. Children are abused beaten and so are babies.

Yes men are subject to violence, but can you name a man that this happened to?

Yes. A colleague's brother was killed by someone as he walked home. Nothing he had done - killer didnt know him, he was just out to kill anyone.