"Five Giants" on the road to reconstruction

Growstuff, Varian and Muse I do think making the Universities work like a factory has skewed our education system as have fights for the Grade 3 pound.

Schools want pupils to stay on both because they think they can offer the best but also because it fills their coffers. Equally, colleges want those pupils on their courses.

Universities have adapted to the "purchasing power" of the loan system and students find it hard to see the whole worth of a University education.

Education needs to be both joined up, flexible and life-long. The current system has delivered many benefits to society and students. Tearing it down is unlikely to be the answer and giving up on the view that PPE, etc., is more prestigious than Engineering means a change in the view of the less educated; those who have been there probably know. We need someone who is education aware and I agree with views expressed about Gavin Williamson and Michael Gove, but you have to ask if you will find anyone with an educationalists view in a Conservative government filled with people (men) who had their views of themselves enhanced by their parents paying for some of the best education available while enhancing their views that they are in some way special.

Very well said, Pippa.

I would also include improving the level of reading comprehension (beyond picking out headlines and soundbites) in my compulsory curriculum.

I actually think that's what university/higher level education does, even or maybe especially in the subjects which don't appear vocationally useful.

In reducing the number of university places, I think a society is in danger of creating a system where a handful have a higher understanding and become those with power and control. Many others will be highly trained, but at a "technician" level. They might be well paid, but they're not encouraged to smash the glass ceiling to the "elite". For examples of that, look at China and some of the developing world. A healthy democracy needs people to understand and be able to analyse the world about them.

Katie59

Statistics, we see them all the time they are published to “prove” a point, treat them with suspicion, the base line is always chosen to show the topic in the best light.

There is a lot of truth in “Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics”

You only treat with suspicion things you do not understand.

If people are taught to understand they can stop thinking like that and find further and different opinions. People used to both hold doctors in awe and suspicion and now we know them as human beings with both knowledge, training and experience in a specific area, which most of us don't have, we do not have to treat them as either gods or devils. We can ask for further clarification, another opinion or voice why we do not agree and expect an explanation about where we are correct and where we are not so. We can do the same with statistics which, just as the doctor has, are a view of the symptoms of a particular part of humanity. They can be interpreted in various ways but to have any chance of challenging them we do need to either gain the knowledge or know where we can find other views.

Making statistics up shows ignorance of the subject and will not ever be taken without comment except in gossipy chat where a diagnosis on what your neighbour's symptoms, and therefore what the disease they suffer from, will be glossed over as lacking in knowledge but not important enough to comment on.

My statistician father (long before the days of computers) would have told you that 'there are liars, damn liars and people who misuse statistics'. That may include politicians [shock horror] and it may include those who have no knowledge. Political lies don't spring out of nowhere they spring from people so wedded to their beliefs (rather like a cult) that they will twist anything and everything to back the 'reality' they bow down to and they will make things up.

I have a family funeral today so can’t comment until evening
I shall be interested how you think the system should be changed to benefit young people, employers and the economy

Please don’t say more of the same.

Pippa
I question the present system because it hasn’t delivered the benefits that were intended, half the graduates are not doing graduate work. Furthermore the economy has not benefitted, 75% of employers cannot find the skills they need (your statistic).
It is obviously undesirable to have half the graduates disappointed, the education system has failed them, they certainly have benefitted from the university experience, that’s not much consolation when you are stacking shelves and can’t pay the rent.
How do you suggest the system is changed.

Statistics, we see them all the time they are published to “prove” a point, treat them with suspicion, the base line is always chosen to show the topic in the best light.

There is a lot of truth in “Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics”

muse

growstuff University shouldn't be regarded as the only option.
There is a B.Tech but that's specifically for engineering.

There's also BTEC (Business and Technology Education Council) that can be studied up to different levels. Highest is Level 7 (equivalent to postgraduate study). Students can start this at 16. Colleges that do BTECs work closely with companies and students can get apprenticeships through them.

Apologies for repeating myself but this has interested me since my granddaughter has chosen to do a BTEC. She starts this September.
Sorry to quote figures but: 74% of employers want new employees with practical knowledge and skills combined, 90% of BTEC students are employed full-time after graduating and 23% of students who went to university in 2018 had a BTEC level 3 extended diploma (equiv to 3 A levels).

There are apprenticeships: www.apprenticeships.gov.uk/

muse I know universities shouldn't be the only option, but realistically there really aren't that many other options, especially outside engineering (and - dare I say it - in traditionally female occupations). Find me a list of Level 4 non-university courses. I bet you can't find many.

PPS. The UK needs somebody other than Gavin Williamson or Michael Gove to deliver change.

PS. I don't think we're saying different things. I just happen to think that universities aren't the wrong place to deliver change, although there needs to be really serious discussion with industry and government and, of course, investment.

varian Many university courses these days are not traditional academic courses. Universities include much which was previously considered practical and/or vocational and the dividing lines are much more blurred than they once were. Polytechnics and colleges of higher education were pressurised into becoming universities in an attempt to get rid of the snobbery attached to university degrees - I'm not sure that's worked, but I think the reasoning behind it was valid.

Unfortunately, there are still people who think PPE, law or classics from Oxford is somehow more prestigious than an engineering degree from another institution. That's the barrier which needs to be broken down. Compare how many people in power in the UK have PPE or law degrees from Oxford and how many have engineering or science degrees. Getting successful (aka rich) in the UK means going into banking or or investing, but our future needs to concentrate on our real strengths, which are science, engineering, IT, etc., in which the country is woefully underskilled.

PippaZ

I do wish people would stop making up statistics to suit their own views. This is just why we need the best education we can give everyone.

I couldn't agree more. Understanding and interpreting statistics should be compulsory in any curriculum. A start could be made with teaching what the word "average" means and how it's misused.

equivalent equivalent to

Katie59

At university level there are many courses available which have very poor employment prospects and marginal graduates with a 2,2 have very little chance.

I’m sure 90% of BTEC graduates do find employment, but the drop out rate is high. Is a BTEC really university material, if the student can’t manage A levels, are they really academic enough to do well at university.

The BTEC level 3 is equivalent A-Level. BTECs at levels 1 and 2 are equivalent to GCSEs, with levels 4-7 holding the same status of achievement as a degree.

And yes, of course, they can lead on to University and an undergraduate degree or higher! You keep guessing Katie59. Why not look it up and do a bit of research?

I do wish people would stop making up statistics to suit their own views. This is just why we need the best education we can give everyone.

I rely did misunderstand you Varian. My apologies. I agree, we need life-long learning after all education isn't just about getting jobs.

PippaZ

In the early 1800s, when the Ragged schools were started, how many children learned to read to the level they do now Varian. Do you find it hard to believe that, offered the opportunity, most children could learn to the level of an 1800's rich man's child or better?

I am shocked that you see it that way. No equality for you then?

PippaZ I'm afraid you have completely misunderstood the point of my post.

When Tony Blair announced that 50% of school leavers should go to university my reaction was "why 50%?". It seemed a completely arbitrary number. Why not 5% or 95%?.

The fact is that I have no idea what percentage of school leavers ought to be spending another three or more years doing full time study in an academic environment after they leave school. Some will benefit from academic degrees and the country will always need a certain number with these skills but I don't knows what that number or percentage should be.

Right now there seems to be a serious disconnect between the system which forces so many to feel that university is the only route to a successful career and what might be better for them and for the country.

I believe that 100%, not just 50% of school leavers should be entitled to several years of post- school education and/ or training but this need not be an academic degree course. nor should it have to happen in their late teens or early twenties.

We need a serious programme of lifetime learning and a reassessment of the value of various skills which can better equip our future generations for an ever changing world.

100% not just 50%,. need the opportunity to maximise their potential. and acquire the knowledge, skills and experience for their adult lives.

Dinahmo
this despite very little evidence that such fraud exists
The mayor of Tower Hamlets was removed from office after being found guilty of voter fraud.

At university level there are many courses available which have very poor employment prospects and marginal graduates with a 2,2 have very little chance.

I’m sure 90% of BTEC graduates do find employment, but the drop out rate is high. Is a BTEC really university material, if the student can’t manage A levels, are they really academic enough to do well at university.

growstuff University shouldn't be regarded as the only option.
There is a B.Tech but that's specifically for engineering.

There's also BTEC (Business and Technology Education Council) that can be studied up to different levels. Highest is Level 7 (equivalent to postgraduate study). Students can start this at 16. Colleges that do BTECs work closely with companies and students can get apprenticeships through them.

Apologies for repeating myself but this has interested me since my granddaughter has chosen to do a BTEC. She starts this September.
Sorry to quote figures but: 74% of employers want new employees with practical knowledge and skills combined, 90% of BTEC students are employed full-time after graduating and 23% of students who went to university in 2018 had a BTEC level 3 extended diploma (equiv to 3 A levels).

There are apprenticeships: www.apprenticeships.gov.uk/

www.ucas.com/alternatives/apprenticeships/apprenticeships-england/what-apprenticeships-are-available/degree-apprenticeships

growstuff

Katie59

If half that go to university can’t find graduate work, would it not be better to give them a technical skill that will probably pay just as well. The universities will accept whoever applies however marginal their prospects are, it’s more about bums on seats than employment prospects. There are some courses that require 3 “A”s most much lower.

How about providing a technical skill at degree level?

We already do via apprenticeships. They already to to degree level.

Katie59

If half that go to university can’t find graduate work, would it not be better to give them a technical skill that will probably pay just as well. The universities will accept whoever applies however marginal their prospects are, it’s more about bums on seats than employment prospects. There are some courses that require 3 “A”s most much lower.

How about providing a technical skill at degree level?

varian Don't forget that today's universities include former polytechnics and some colleges of higher education, which weren't counted as universities. 18 year olds themselves know which are the traditional universities and often decide that they don't offer the kind of courses they want.

One of the huge advantages of German education and industry has been that technical education is offered at a higher education level. With the kind of jobs in today's world and, more importantly, those of the future, we are in greater need than ever of people with high level skills.

I couldn't put an exact figure on the number who benefit from a university education, but I certainly think the majority need education/training beyond 18 and will probably need to retrain a number of times during their lifetime. Maybe university isn't the right place for some of them, but there are so few opportunities for Level 4 apprenticeships that it's usually the only option.

In the early 1800s, when the Ragged schools were started, how many children learned to read to the level they do now Varian. Do you find it hard to believe that, offered the opportunity, most children could learn to the level of an 1800's rich man's child or better?

I am shocked that you see it that way. No equality for you then?

In the early 60s the percentage of school leavers going to university was between 3% and 4% - and there were still quite a few who failed exams, had to repeat years or dropped out.

Obviously there were many school leavers then who for one reason or another either did not get the opportunity.

Even so, it is hard to believe that 50% of today's school leavers are just as capable of benefiting from a university education as that tiny minority of our generation were.

It sometimes seems that degrees have been devalued by this huge expansion in numbers to the extent that, in spite of the cost, many now think they need a postgraduate qualification to get a decent job.