Scottish Election 6 weeks away.

I have many reasons to support independence, none of them daft, and if voting SNP get us there, that's what I'll be doing. But DH and I were discussing this today and we reckon there's a good 1/3 of people who are Unionist to the core, either because they just think the Union is the answer to everything, (valid belief) or because they think we'll never prosper on our own (not a valid belief). So they are not the ones we'll have to convince, its the 1/6 of people who would take us from 45% to 60% (my maths may not be spot on )

Mary Queen of Scots would have been for Union, I reckon. She wanted the crowns of Scotland and England.

Yes independence is all about hopes and dreams but they don't pay bills or pensions. Hard economics come into it. I noticed that Nicola had no answers to that when questioned.
My neighbour voted SNP and I asked her why after I pointed out their multiplicity of failings over the past 14 years. She replied, 'Because Mary Queen of Scots would have wanted me to.'! I reminded her that Mary's own son inherited the English throne. She replied, 'Oh yes. I forgot. Och.'
Another daft reason to vote SNP.

I think the difference is Urmstongran that I don't think the UK is particularly corrupt, or out to get us, or particularly the "big bad wolf", if I can say that. Its just going in a different direction, especially England, I'm afraid, and although we do have representation at Westminster we are always going to be the minor partner in this relationship, and that's not how its meant to be.

Its not being emotional, its about being living our own way, making our own wealth and being seen on the world stage as a European country, a position which I'm sorry to say the UK no longer has.

I'm not deluded about the economic effects either, it won't be the same after we've left. That's the point

My view is let all four countries have their independence. Let them all go it alone and see if they prosper. However, if they don’t, then on their heads be it. What are the arguments for staying as we are. What do we all gain from it? Very little from my point of view, just constant bitterness and arguments. So, why can’t we all have a referendum on independence? I’d vote for that.

Have to agree Alegrias.
I voted Brexit.

I wanted autonomy from the corrupt EU.
❤️ Europe but not the unelected bureaucrats who refused for YEARS to have their gravy train accounts audited.

In the end for me, it was sod it, I’d rather the UK was on its own.

I can understand Scotland’s POV. It hurts if they choose to go (just as it must have hurt Brussels) but independence is, I think, an emotional and heart felt need. It calls to the soul.

Aveline I know we will never agree but not everything is about money. We may get money from the financial settlement of the Union but we pay in as well. I am going to guess that most independence supporters will want self determination, not money. I do. We used to have a poster who could quote chapter and verse about the balance between them but she doesn't post any more.

This is a very silly example but I'm going to use it anyway. When I was young I could have stayed in my mum's house and been happy and comfortable and not taken any chances. But I went into the world and for a while I was hard up but I made my own way and eventually had a nice life. That's what I want for Scotland.

I'm being poetic this evening

Norway, Finland, and of course Ireland are all a similar size to Scotland Aveline, and manage well as independent countries.

Britain is such a small island it would be plain daft to split it up. Scotland has proportionately just as much representation at Westminster as any other part of the UK and receives a better deal financially. I can quite understand that other parts of the country resent that.

varian

There now seems to be a good chance that the erstwhile United Kingdom, will become little England with hard borders between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Is this what the so-called "conservative and unionist party" wanted when they campaigned for Brexit?

It never crossed their minds because they are fundamentally little Englanders.

There now seems to be a good chance that the erstwhile United Kingdom, will become little England with hard borders between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Is this what the so-called "conservative and unionist party" wanted when they campaigned for Brexit?

And Ireland and possibly Wales??

suziewoozie

So why is Johnson so frit ?

Possibly because he doesn’t want the Union to break up under his ‘watch’. Understandable. It’s a biggie to set down in the history books.
?

Elegran

It took me too long to type that, so the discussion has moved on a bit, but I concur with Alegrias that the Scots are not some alien species who want something strange. They are a mixture of individuals just as are all nations, and don't deserve to be patronised and vilified for wanting to plan their future - whether it is within the Uk or outside it.

Hear, hear Elegran ?

Galaxy yes it is an interesting question. Here’s my broad brush thoughts . Representative democracies should use referendum sparingly and for matters only of far reaching constitutional import - as we have done. Because we haven’t got a formal constitution, there are not the clear rules laid down as to what counts as a constitutional change whereas some countries it is enshrined in constitutional law. So for example, Ireland had to have a referendum to change the law on abortion and if irc on divorce.
I think in countries where referendum are held a two thirds majority is quite a common threshold. I also think some countries have legal conditions as to how long there must be between referendum on the same issue. Both these conditions should apply and it’s the discredit of our political system that they don’t.
I would hate for matters like abortion, divorce, gay rights etc to be subject to referendum. What has usually happened with matters like this is that they are brought in via a Private Members Bill with a free vote but with the government of tge day promising parliamentary time ( without which no PMB stands as earthly)
My final point after the appalling breaking of election law, foreign interference and expenditure in the Brexit referendum, we need some really tough new laws to make this aspect of referendum truly democratic.

An organisation wishing to change its constitution usually sets a much higher bar than 50% when they ask at an AGM (or at a Special General Meeting called just to decide the change) for votes for and against. In fact, the level needed is usually stated in the original constitution. A country is a bigger unit than a charity or other organisation, and the effects of a change a lot more far-reaching.

I think that referendums with 50% cut off just cause more problems than they're worth. For serious issues involving constitutional change it should be at least 60% or even more as it is in other countries.
Actually, I'd quite like to just hold this referendum right now so as to cut the uncertainty that will hover over the economy and impede recovery. I say this as I know of businesses who are holding back on further investment in Scotland until they see whether they would be better moving to England.

I dont know. There is something about them that makes me uneasy. What if there was a referendum on gay marriage and people voted against, what if the referendum on abortion had gone the other way, peoples right to live their life would be decided by other people. I dont know there is just something that worries me.

I was in favour of a referendum, but like many others, I wasn’t happy with the outcome. Having a referendum only seems to make sense if everyone agrees to go with the result.
Alegrias1 I think you’re right about needing a more decisive result. There may have been over a million difference, but 49%/51% doesn’t look convincing if I’m on the losing side.

That's a really interesting question Galaxy. We do seem to be in a situation where the only way to decide on this is via a referendum. DH did comment the other day that the Union was a voluntary one in Scotland and so we could just leave the Union any time we like. I'm not sure that would work very well!

What would be the alternative to a referendum?

I don't know enough about referendums to comment. Do you think referenda is a fair method?

Can I ask if those in favour are in favour of referendums generally. I have very mixed feelings about referendums. I support the right for independence completely but just wonder about peoples feelings about referendums as a democratic tool.

I expect that we will see a lot of commentary on the media on how Sturgeon is rolling back the demand for a referendum until Covid is sorted, so I think its worth posting this extract from the SNP manifesto. There has never been any desire to have a referendum in the immediate future, although the Unionist parties will try to make us believe that was the plan.

Just saw on Sky news that Nicola Sturgeon is playing down the call for a referendum at the moment ( I suppose until Covid is sorted)

I want another referendum (surprise!) but we'll only get one more chance at it and there has to be a decisive majority - 51%/49% won't hack it, either way, just as Casdon has said. That's why I'd rather concentrate on getting the country in a good state and showing that we can run our own affairs before the people are asked again.

I think Sturgeon thinks that way too but there is an extreme part of the independence movement that would declare UDI tomorrow if they could, and that would be a disaster. So she has to balance it.

Turnout at the last referendum was 86% or so, so people were engaged then. The turnout at this latest election was up about 10% on the last time, which is encouraging.

I loved the rant Elegran. I am, however, a teuchter ? ?

susiewoozie - I think he's afraid of an avalanche of countries and areas of the UK wanting independence