BAME - Let's stop using it

Grandmajet - I agree with you. We're all fascinating individuals.
By getting to know each other better help narrow the division.
People's stories are so important in understanding our world.

X posts. But there are situations eg in a policy meeting where it would be perfectly proper to ask ‘have we considered the issues around ethnic minorities’ and then go on to discuss the different groups individually in terms of eg service needs.

Chardy

Romesh Ranganathan (of Sri Lankan heritage) was using 'BAME' this morning on TV when talking about celebs encouraging groups with low vaccination take-up.
Groups that are discriminated against (WASPIs and BAME have been mentioned already) would probably be delighted for the tags and the discrimination to stop simultaneously.

We know that there is vaccine hesitancy amongst certain groups, but the BAME label doesn't really help. For example, a black actor would be unlikely to appeal to somebody from a Pakistani-heritage background. They're different ethnic groups and their hesitancy is likely caused by different factors.

Just because somebody has brown skin or "foreign looking" facial features doesn't mean that identify as belonging to any group other than British anyway. They could very well have been born in the UK, even though their parents or grandparents were immigrants. Compare how second generation immigrants from Eastern Europe or Ireland, who of course have white skin, are treated. They very quickly integrate and the only real difference is their skin colour.

We need acceptable words to use to describe relevant differences - it’s just silly to pretend we don’t. The key word is relevant - does the difference need commenting on. Eg ‘my neighbour from no 24 has been taken to hospital ‘or ‘my black neighbour from no 24 has been taken to hospital.’Or ‘ my black neighbour from no 24 has been verbally abused in the street (again)

I agree with you suzie. We do seem to have X posted.

So, serious question, PamelaJ1, not being goady...why do you need a word to describe your neighbour other than "your neighbour"?

If s/he wants to tell you about their family's history, I'm sure they will. It really isn't anybody's business. Sorry, repeating myself there.

The post upthread about how a footballer was described. Why did it matter where his ancestors came from? Just call him by his name, if you need to call him anything.

Regarding BAME, I mostly agree with suzie and growstuff.

The issue surely is about the words we use to describe individuals when their differences are relevant. The issue about disability is similar. There are a huge range of different disabilities which need considering in many different situations. There has to be a way of doing this by using language which is acceptable to the individuals concerned.

My son in law is British, born and bred in London. His father was Pakistani and lived through partition. His mother was Irish and remembers the Troubles. The core if his being is very much influenced by them and their experiences, which made them who they were. It is not irrelevant to who he is, and understanding that helped us to get to know him as a whole person.
Incidentally, is fake tan seen as cultural appropriation? Serious question.

The words defining various groups, whether they are ethnic, medical or whatever, change every few years because they get grubby and worn round the edges, and need thrown out and replaced. They start to be used more widely, to mean more than they did to start with, by people who are not familiar with the accurate medical meaning of, say, imbecile versus idiot (according to 19C censuses, an idiot is born an idiot, an imbecile becomes imbecilic with old age) or what exactly makes someone a cretin (congenital hypothyroidism, a severe deficiency of thyroid hormone in newborns, causing impaired neurological function, stunted growth, and physical deformities.)

The old words fall into opprobrium and are replaced by new ones - which are used until they too are replaced. It is not always easy to keep up with the latest terminology, there are so many subjects on which to be criticised if you miss the latest revision.

Of course it’s easy to keep up - that’s a lazy excuse. Its all about thinking it matters. People don’t seem to have the slightest problem with keeping up with the minutiae of the tedious lives of the royal family do they?

Is there any reason why anyone has to describe the colour of a person ? No, there damn well isn't. They are people for God's sake.

Urmstongran

We are now to say ‘ethnic minorities’.
I can’t keep up these days with what’s acceptable.

Agree Urmston!
I dislike ‘People of colour’ even if it’s now the ‘pc expression’, it sounds disrespectful to me. My DH has a keen ear for accents and he often asks people where are they from, they are usually white British, but otherwise I could see a problem.

No, it isn't easy to keep up, ^Suziewoozie* Do you spend all day updating your woke vocabulary?
There are hundreds of medical conditions with changing names, new treatments and different prognoses, hundreds of new foods which promise to improve your health by vast amounts so that if you ate them all you'd live for ever, new hazards to watch out for round every corner, new meanings to familiar words and phrases that we have been using for decades and new words for timeless conditions.

If you read all the articles and reports on all the subjects in all the media, which is the way to see all the naming updates in their context, there'd be no time to sleep.

I have no interest in the minute detail of the lives of the Royal Family, or which celeb is bonking which other celeb's wife so that is not a comparison. Neither have I had a lot of interest in Prince Harry's latest date, until she became a fiancee and then wife in a fanfare of publicity..

It most definitely is NOT easy to keep up with what we are or aren’t ‘supposed’ to say as it seems to change almost weekly.

grandmajet My daughter's partner was born and grew up in the UK. His parents were born in other countries, but their background, heritage or skin colour do not define the core of his being any more than who my parents were define mine.

If it’s getting replaced, the communities in question should get to decide what the terminology is.

JenniferEccles

It most definitely is NOT easy to keep up with what we are or aren’t ‘supposed’ to say as it seems to change almost weekly.

Unfortunately, people's bigotry doesn't change weekly. That's usually lifelong.

AmberSpyglass

If it’s getting replaced, the communities in question should get to decide what the terminology is.

How about nothing, unless it's relevant?

URMSTON GRAN,
I know exactly how you feel! I just had to go and Google bame to see what it meant.

Perhaps someone could say why on the census a person could not describe themself as black and English, they could describe themselves as white and English or Black and Scottish or British but not English.

There was a black lady married to a Welshman who described herself as Welsh and was criticised for it, that she couldn’t be Welsh. At first I agreed as I had a view of what being Welsh is BUT then I recalled two people I have known over the years who are very Welsh. If you research their family history and names however they are actually of Swedish extraction! Things are not always what they seem.

Growstuff, I don’t understand how you think someone’s parents have no input into how they grow up. Children learn everything from their environment, they learn how to relate to the larger world and the people in it, as well as a sense of who they are. It’s not an insult to realise this. It’s the best way to understand our differences and also that within us which is the same, and rejoice in both of those aspects of being human.

JenniferEccles

It most definitely is NOT easy to keep up with what we are or aren’t ‘supposed’ to say as it seems to change almost weekly.

It doesn’t change weekly.
It simply doesn’t and your post is totally inaccurate

As a white English person, I have to say I have always thought it was a lumpy and unhelpful phrase but I had assumed that the phrase had arisen from the communities it described. Its a many layered problem. There is a need for some kind of portmanteau words to describe groups by ethnicity for public and statistical purposes.

grandmajet I didn't claim that his parents have no input into how my daughter's partner grew up, just that their ethnic and cultural background have not affected him. I don't understand why you think they should have done. It's just not important or relevant to his life now.

His parents chose to come to the UK and understood that they needed to integrate. They are Muslims but have allowed their children to choose their own lives. My daughter's partner went to one of the most successful academic public schools in the country. If anything, I would say his education has defined him more than his family background.

Nevertheless, his genes mean that he is more susceptible to a handful of medical conditions. That's the only reason his background matters.