Anyone understand why Johnson is so far ahead in the polls?

grow by suggesting that the increase in food banks and wealth will make no difference in Hartlepool you have conflated two of my statements.

I made a factual statement about food bank and wealth increase.

In my first post I indicated that traditional Labour supporters will vote Tory this week.

The two are separate.

I give up.

Nowhere have I used that language!

Where on earth are you coming from?

Are you confusing me with someone else?

I didn't claim you did use that language. However, you made a factual statement (which I'm not disputing) as justification for why you think people should vote Labour. Presumably, you think people should be persuaded by the statement, but they're not. For whatever reason, the two facts about food banks and the wealthier getting richer aren't high on their priority list.

You need to listen to why people are abandoning Labour (and it's not because they're stupid) and support a Labour Party which addresses those issues even if they're not your priorities.

Labour still haven't decided who their 'core vote is, they're still trying to represent two totally different demographics with ever more widening values and priorities. Until they can bridge this gap (and in all probability they won't be able to) they can't achieve cut through.

Many people voted for Johnson last time solely to keep Corbyn out, yes I agree with you, many have said so, but this does not explain why many people are voting for Johnson does it?

Many people will vote for what we have until they feel safe again and that will probably not be for at least a year. It doesn't mean they trust Johnson but they don't see this as time for a change - and this is not a GE.

I'd very much like to know what KS could have done over the past year or so. He became party leader in April 2020 when we were already into the pandemic.

He has done what he can do. Started to make the LP more attractive and plan, plan, plan. That's what Biden has done and once people got their heads around the wheeler-dealing of Trump they could see there could be better.

growstuff

I didn't claim you did use that language. However, you made a factual statement (which I'm not disputing) as justification for why you think people should vote Labour. Presumably, you think people should be persuaded by the statement, but they're not. For whatever reason, the two facts about food banks and the wealthier getting richer aren't high on their priority list.

You need to listen to why people are abandoning Labour (and it's not because they're stupid) and support a Labour Party which addresses those issues even if they're not your priorities.

Labour still haven't decided who their 'core vote is, they're still trying to represent two totally different demographics with ever more widening values and priorities. Until they can bridge this gap (and in all probability they won't be able to) they can't achieve cut through.

No the factual statement was just that. Whether people are persuaded or not is up to them.

You are also making assumptions about whether I listen or or understand or not as to why people vote the way they do. Believe me without boring you with the detail, I cut my teeth on just that, so your assumption is wrong I am afraid.

You are also conflating Labours current issues with my supposed support. Once again you are making assumptions.

Chatting on GN is not an academic exercise and we all use language etc that would not be acceptable if it were, but do not make assumptions about my level of understanding, because you are wrong I am afraid.

PippaZ

^Many people voted for Johnson last time solely to keep Corbyn out, yes I agree with you, many have said so, but this does not explain why many people are voting for Johnson does it?^

Many people will vote for what we have until they feel safe again and that will probably not be for at least a year. It doesn't mean they trust Johnson but they don't see this as time for a change - and this is not a GE.

I'd very much like to know what KS could have done over the past year or so. He became party leader in April 2020 when we were already into the pandemic.

He has done what he can do. Started to make the LP more attractive and plan, plan, plan. That's what Biden has done and once people got their heads around the wheeler-dealing of Trump they could see there could be better.

That is what I have been reading lately pippa

The idea is to plan a process to culminate at the next election.

You have just told me what I'm doing or at least assume from your perspective). You haven't listened.

I am a genuine left of centre floating voter. It's amazing that people from the left can get up my nose so much. It's almost as though they don't want my vote. I won't ever vote Conservative, but I might very well look to see whether Lord BucketHead (or one of his clones) is talking any sense. Others like me might very well vote for Johnson.

I think Labour are missing a trick though. I live in a true blue area and there are LOTS of frustrated voters living here with ABSOLUTELY USELESS conservative MPs who don't live her, don't listen to them. We don't see anyone canvassing at any election. Someone posted today on our local facebook re the police commissioner, the only person who is visible is to Con one and people were discussing 'where are the others?' <Jim off Friday night dinner>
I know its to do with funding but surely Labour could do better

sorry I think my typing is rather excitable this evening - translate at your peril

growstuff

You have just told me what I'm doing or at least assume from your perspective). You haven't listened.

I tell you what I don’t understand.

I have hardly posted at all today except the three posts above when I sat down with a cup of coffee.

What on earth prompted both your posts with such virulent criticism.

You may know that I never -or try never to post on a personal basis unless it calls for it on a chat thread etc. So I feel very uncomfortable answering your personal criticism, as I think that it simply isn’t very clever to attack a poster rather than the argument being put forward.

What on earth prompted you?

I think there’s a combination of factors which have contributed to job losses in Wales Urmstongran. It’s a poor country compared with England and Scotland, income is low, as is contribution to GDP, and Wales was more heavily reliant on exports to the EU, so income is being lost.
gov.wales/sites/default/files/statistics-and-research/2020-03/welsh-exports-2019-917.pdf
The impact of the pandemic has been devastating on some communities, particularly in the South Wales Valleys, and there have been lots of start up businesses permanently closed because owners didn’t qualify for financial support. We don’t have a lot of heavy industry because of the difficulties of transport, and tourism, which is massively important here, has been non existent until the last few weeks.

I’m sure there are regions of England where there are similar economic issues, but I think the one thing the pandemic has done for Wales, where the government here has taken different decisions on lockdowns etc., is to finally get the non political people in the population to realise that we have some autonomy already, and the sense of acceptance that Wales was the poor relation in the UK that was present is being challenged more.

Be as aggressive as you like Whitewave. I'm not rising to it. Try listening!

I like Boris, what you see is what you get, he goes his own way without worrying about the minutiae of politics and what people think of him. He is a positive person and engenders positivity in others. We feel he is on the side of the working classes. I am afraid Labour and Lib Dems have lost the plot they are now seen as representing the elite, they make a fuss about things that are so unimportant to our lives. These two parties are so London centric that they no longer represent the rest of the country, so we turn to the Conservatives to represent us. I do get fed up with the avid Labour people on this website, I am sure most of the people on this website are sensibly not Labour. The saying used to a socialist until 30 I think now it is 40, when you start realising that socialism does not work and you pay for it.

grow

This is why I think the working class in Hartlepool and more generally in the red wall constituencies voted for Brexit and the Tories.

I disagree that the vote by the working classes for Brexit and subsequently the Tories showed a poor level of education and economic unawareness.

I think that is a reductionist argument and in fact the working class decision was far more nuanced than it would suggest.

I think that the working class rooted their decision in post industrial and localised experiences, particularly noting the result of the neo- liberal policies resulting in social dislocation, economic uncertainty and the awareness that they were both ignored and taken for granted by political parties both right and left. Note - it is only since the last general election that the Tories have taken any notice of this area, and indeed it is questionable as to whether they would have won the election without these votes.

That is my understanding.

Or to put it in GN terms.

The people in the red wall constituencies are cheesed off with being ignored for years and years as they saw a decline both in their traditional industries, their standard of living and the disintegration of their communities.

Both political parties ignored their plight for largely the same reason. They had always voted a Labour.

And no I don’t think they are thick or stupid or have a lack of awareness as to where their interests lie.

I would be pissed off if I lived their experiences.

Very interesting Casdon. The link was helpful too in my understanding. Thanks again!
?

I think Labour voters in the red wall areas abandoned the paty for several reasons. Firstly the lack of any real actions to improve their lot by local Labour councils, this is partly the result of Tory cuts but also the decisons of those councils to spend money on expensive senior officers and bureaucracy. Many of those LPs also have councillors who are involved in business deals and are regarded as being corrupt. Add to that their failure to deliver social housing, the selling off or privatising of public parks and land and they are seen as just being as bad as the Tories. So you might as well have the real thing.

PGAgirl

I like Boris, what you see is what you get, he goes his own way without worrying about the minutiae of politics and what people think of him. He is a positive person and engenders positivity in others. We feel he is on the side of the working classes. I am afraid Labour and Lib Dems have lost the plot they are now seen as representing the elite, they make a fuss about things that are so unimportant to our lives. These two parties are so London centric that they no longer represent the rest of the country, so we turn to the Conservatives to represent us. I do get fed up with the avid Labour people on this website, I am sure most of the people on this website are sensibly not Labour. The saying used to a socialist until 30 I think now it is 40, when you start realising that socialism does not work and you pay for it.

You're talking sense to me.

All the anti-Boris sentiment on this site gets me down. Lots of people think he's great. Someone I met in a working class area of a northern city said to me today - "I love Boris to bits". It is not an isolated sentiment. Whatever he has, he has it in spades. And it can't be matched by any other politician at the present time.

And lets face it, he is what we need as we come out of this appalling time. Someone with a bit of optimism.

Interestingly whilst the support for Johnson seems to be growing in the red wall, it is leaching away in the London boroughs and the Tories have almost abandoned the boroughs.

I think it would be more helpful if the Labour Party spent less time criticising their ex-supporters who now vote Conservative and instead really talked to them to find out what the party has to do to make itself electable again - and then do it.

It is not good for any country to become a one party state, which is what we are at the moment.

SIR KEIR STARMER has pleaded for more time to turn his party’s fortunes around after a poll showed that the Conservative Party had a 17-point lead on Labour ahead of tomorrow’s by-election in Hartlepool.

I think that's completely reasonable comment. In my view we are in the place Labour was following Michael Foot, kinnock never became PM but he started to make the labour party electable, that was his role and personally I think that's Starmers job and I think it will take a long time.

It took 14 years for the Labour Party to become electable after
1983, Starmer has been leader for a year.

And to be honest I was not a fan of kinnock at the time but looking back with the benefit of hindsight he did a good job in difficult circumstances.