Anyone understand why Johnson is so far ahead in the polls?

varian

If Labour had followed the wishes of the majority of their supporters and been actively pro-Remain, they may have lost a few Leave constituencies but gained more Remain constituencies.

All the other parties took a stance on Brexit which was in agreement with their supporters. Labour blew it by sitting on the fence which made them look feeble and untrustworthy..

I don't think they would have done. I remember looking at the lists of constituencies at the time and realising what a problem it was.

varian

Voting LibDem has never been a wasted vote here where we have had a LibDem District Council for 35 years. At times we have also had a LibDem County Council and a LibDem MP.

Voting LibDem most definitely is a wasted vote in my area, with the possible exception of parish council level.

Urmstongran

My dad would have been 90y last Christmas. He died at the age of 46y sadly ... way before ‘Love Island’ was a thing. I still think he was right. Okay I admit pockets of voters do manage to elect a handful of MP’s. but still.

Voters have long memories.
Nick Clegg did it for most. Scuppered LibDems for many a year.
Tuition fees undid him
Then bringing forward the proposed changes in the women’s state pensions (WASPI) to aid ‘austerity measures’ with George Osborne put the final nail in the LD’s coffin!

The 2011 changes to pensions didn't just affect women's pensions. They affected men as well.

I suspect the electorate would haven’t been too bothered about the ridiculous tuition fee debacle.
Voting for the bedroom tax while in coalition, the ‘discovering’ it was a Bad Thing when no longer in coalition, that’s what did for the Lib Dems where I’m concerned.

My dad would have been 90y last Christmas. He died at the age of 46y sadly ... way before ‘Love Island’ was a thing. I still think he was right. Okay I admit pockets of voters do manage to elect a handful of MP’s. but still.

Voters have long memories.
Nick Clegg did it for most. Scuppered LibDems for many a year.
Tuition fees undid him
Then bringing forward the proposed changes in the women’s state pensions (WASPI) to aid ‘austerity measures’ with George Osborne put the final nail in the LD’s coffin!

Urmstongran

^ Many people were put off voting LibDem because they saw it as a wasted vote^

You’re right there growstuff.
When I was a newbie voter for the first time ever in 1971 my dad said ‘vote Liberal if you want but it’s a wasted vote’.

Lovely people, our eldest is one who chooses to vote that way ... but a wasted vote? Definitely.

It's only wasted if you see our democracy as something comparable to Love Island Urmstongran - just a superficial popularity contest.

If you vote Green, for instance, it says something. I think the LDs, a bit like the Labour Party, need a more obvious message.

A vote is never wasted, no matter who it is for. Our WM constituency had been Liberal/Lib Dem for decades, but I didn't vote Lib Dem. Eventually, two GEs ago, we returned member from another party. If we'd never gone with that other party, they would never have built up enough support to be elected.

In the 2016 election (2016?) he won by 2 votes. Me and DH, we tell people. Call me idealistic, but a vote is never wasted if you vote for the person you want to win.

Voting LibDem has never been a wasted vote here where we have had a LibDem District Council for 35 years. At times we have also had a LibDem County Council and a LibDem MP.

^ Many people were put off voting LibDem because they saw it as a wasted vote^

You’re right there growstuff.
When I was a newbie voter for the first time ever in 1971 my dad said ‘vote Liberal if you want but it’s a wasted vote’.

Lovely people, our eldest is one who chooses to vote that way ... but a wasted vote? Definitely.

Yes I agree growstuff it's much more complex and if we pretend it's as simple as remain/leave then labour will fail. I am afraid I think both labour and the lib dems handed the wokeness debate to the Tories on a plate. People who are struggling on minimum wage, etc are just not interested in their mp chuntering on about Palestine or other very specific minority issues. Sorry if that's brutal but as with Biden you need to sell a simple relatable message and when you are elected you can do all those things anyway.

So what about the problem with Norway and cod? Is every country wrong except us when it comes to fishing rights?

If Labour had followed the wishes of the majority of their supporters and been actively pro-Remain, they may have lost a few Leave constituencies but gained more Remain constituencies.

All the other parties took a stance on Brexit which was in agreement with their supporters. Labour blew it by sitting on the fence which made them look feeble and untrustworthy..

I agree with you Pippa that if we had PR, people might very well vote differently and the party political landscape would be different. However, PR is not likely to happen while both the Conservatives and Labour both benefit from having FPTP.

Urmstongran

^It's interesting, isn't it MayBee, that every Brexiteer was on the side of those who used to be employed in the Fishing industry years ago until Boris made a mess of the agreement.^

Now they don't say a word

And yet ... listen to France today regarding fishing!
Jersey is threatened (yes) by the EU over fishing rights and supposed quotas - so much so they (the French) have threatened to cut electricity supplies there! 95% of electricity to Jersey is supplied by French companies. This is abhorrent. It is tantamount to menacing behaviour. Shows JUST how important fishing rights are. Yet, if the French got their paperwork in good order (ticking boxes, dotting the ‘i’s’ etc as they make UK trade to the EU do) then apparently their wouldn’t be a problem!

There's more to it than that!

Galaxy

Sorry Pippa I was referring to growstuff comment about those most likely to vote labour are young renters, that's not a big enough slice of the electorate and they are less likely to vote anyway.
As a centrist myself, my advice to the labour party would be to try to take the centre ground, but many would have seen the lib dems as part of that centre ground so why has their vote collapsed. I do think people are moving to the extremes, I think social media has been partly responsible for that. It is much more tribal than it has ever been in my view.

I thought that might be it and I agree. If we had PR you could appeal to individual groups and then have more than one party in power, but with our FPTP they need to widen their appeal. Mind you I think they all know that - it's just about how you make it work in what seems to be a changing population.

Galaxy

I dont see how that can be true varian, there couldnt have been a more pro remain party than the lib dems and they did not pick up those voters. If those were votes for the taking then the lib dems would have taken them.

Again, it was more complicated. Many people were put off voting LibDem because they saw it as a wasted vote and chose to try and keep the party they liked least out.

It's interesting, isn't it MayBee, that every Brexiteer was on the side of those who used to be employed in the Fishing industry years ago until Boris made a mess of the agreement.

Now they don't say a word

And yet ... listen to France today regarding fishing!
Jersey is threatened (yes) by the EU over fishing rights and supposed quotas - so much so they (the French) have threatened to cut electricity supplies there! 95% of electricity to Jersey is supplied by French companies. This is abhorrent. It is tantamount to menacing behaviour. Shows JUST how important fishing rights are. Yet, if the French got their paperwork in good order (ticking boxes, dotting the ‘i’s’ etc as they make UK trade to the EU do) then apparently their wouldn’t be a problem!

varian

Labour made a fatal mistake when they ignored the wishes of the majority of their voters, their members and their sitting MPs and did not take a positively pro-Remain stance on Brexit.

It was more complicated than that. The majority of Labour voters supported Remain, but the majority of Labour constituencies voted Leave. The problem for Labour was that their Remain supporters were concentrated in the cities and university towns.

PippaZ

Whitewavemark2

PippaZ

I'm at home kicking the chair leg because I can't drink wine any more!

?? just think how superior your liver is feeling

I've been thinking very carefully about it. It isn't the alcohol it's the fruit sugars that get me. This could means I might be able to drink a very dry champagne or wine - don't you think? When I'm feeling brave I'll try.

Bit off topic here but a quickie, I’ve been reintroducing gluten into my diet very carefully like e.g. rye and buckwheat bread and so far my system is coping with it. So might be worth a try but good research first as it isn’t worth the misery.

I dont see how that can be true varian, there couldnt have been a more pro remain party than the lib dems and they did not pick up those voters. If those were votes for the taking then the lib dems would have taken them.

Galaxy I know and that's a huge problem for Labour. They need to find voters in a different "pool" from their traditional one. The JAMs maybe? That's what happened with the Democrats and Republicans in the US.

The Conservatives have successfully appealed to different demographics, which is why they've shifted attention to cultural issues (eg, nationalism and "wokeness") and away from economics.

I think we must look at America’s example and understand that the move to an extreme position can be dragged back to the centre with the right policies .

It is what is needed in the U.K.

Try watching this Pippa

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxhhyh5qdSU

Whitewavemark2

PippaZ

I'm at home kicking the chair leg because I can't drink wine any more!

?? just think how superior your liver is feeling

I've been thinking very carefully about it. It isn't the alcohol it's the fruit sugars that get me. This could means I might be able to drink a very dry champagne or wine - don't you think? When I'm feeling brave I'll try.

Labour made a fatal mistake when they ignored the wishes of the majority of their voters, their members and their sitting MPs and did not take a positively pro-Remain stance on Brexit.