The working classes just aren't very bright so have no chance of bettering themselves

I would like to see the return of "night school". I have a number of ancestors who benefited. It's also interesting to read about the number of workers' education and library groups in the Victorian era, when there were a number of groups who wanted to support the education of the "lower classes" (admittedly not always for reasons we would consider laudable these days).

Alexa

How did you do that Maisie?

I didn't do anything. That's how your post came up on my screen

I would like to see the return of "night school".

Adult and continuing education slashed to just about non existent under the tories since 2010. It's been pretty futile to be 'aspirational' since then.

Even OU is expensive

I did my degree with the OU JaneJudge some time ago and looked into doing a Masters but the cost alone put me off. I've just looked at the link you provided and couldn't believe how much it would have cost if I was studying for my Honours degree now.

I agree trisher, the grant system was a much better system. We knew our son wouldn't qualify for a grant but he looked into it anyway.

I may have this wrong but as far as I can remember, he was as we expected not eligible and wouldn't have been regardless of our income, because I have a degree.

You do have that wrong, Smileless. The figures about parental education are gathered, but in order to see how many students are from so-called 'non-traditional backgrounds' for Equal Opps monitoring. The only barrier to a grant is parental income, even though students are legally adults and should, IMO, be assessed independently of their parents.

Smileless I'm not sure what you mean by "having a degree".

My daughter started uni in the last year means-tested grants were available. She received a full grant plus a top up, based on my income, despite the fact that I have a degree.

Thanks for the correction and explanation Doodledog.

growstuff

I would like to see the return of "night school". I have a number of ancestors who benefited. It's also interesting to read about the number of workers' education and library groups in the Victorian era, when there were a number of groups who wanted to support the education of the "lower classes" (admittedly not always for reasons we would consider laudable these days).

We discussed this upthread. It's not just evening classes that have been cut - the FE sector in general is all but gone, and it is arguably the sector that added more value, in the sense of lifting people out of having no or few qualifications and giving them access to a better life.

Doodledog

You do have that wrong, Smileless. The figures about parental education are gathered, but in order to see how many students are from so-called 'non-traditional backgrounds' for Equal Opps monitoring. The only barrier to a grant is parental income, even though students are legally adults and should, IMO, be assessed independently of their parents.

It's a minefield. I agree with you that in theory students should be assessed on their own income, as I was when I did my PGCE because I was a mature student. However, we all know that parents and grandparents contribute to their offspring's expenses, which puts those from poorer families at a disadvantage. On the other hand, I also knew students who claimed on the basis of a divorced parent's income, but received support from the other parent and/or grandparents. I don't know the answer. What I would say to anybody who feels that they want to study for a degree, for whatever reason - go for it! Don't let the cost put you off!

My son gets a grant and we both have degrees

I would also like to see the return of 'night school' or even businesses being made, rather than encouraged, to invest in the education of their permanent employees - if the employee wishes to, obviously. I know there are a lot of ethical employers who are progressive but it certainly isn't a majority.

Doodledog

growstuff

I would like to see the return of "night school". I have a number of ancestors who benefited. It's also interesting to read about the number of workers' education and library groups in the Victorian era, when there were a number of groups who wanted to support the education of the "lower classes" (admittedly not always for reasons we would consider laudable these days).

We discussed this upthread. It's not just evening classes that have been cut - the FE sector in general is all but gone, and it is arguably the sector that added more value, in the sense of lifting people out of having no or few qualifications and giving them access to a better life.

Yep! I agree! It's really short-sighted when it's forecast that most people will have at least one complete change of career in their life. I've looked at various courses over the last decade or so, but nearly all of them were provided by private companies and, when I dug down, represented poor value for money. Quality courses cost a fortune and are really for the already well-heeled or those being sponsored by their employer.

JaneJudge Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. My son receives a grant too, but it's added to his loan and is repayable.

However, we all know that parents and grandparents contribute to their offspring's expenses, which puts those from poorer families at a disadvantage. On the other hand, I also knew students who claimed on the basis of a divorced parent's income, but received support from the other parent and/or grandparents.

With the best will in the world, those from poorer families are always going to be disadvantaged, financially at least. The grant system was never intended to sort that out - that would take an overhaul of everything, and is way outside the remit of this thread.

I don't think that students can play the divorced parent trick nowadays (and I also remember people doing nicely out of this), as both parents have to declare their earnings and the awards are based on the total. When my children were going through the student loan system my husband and I each had to do separate sets of forms, even though we are married and live together.

I believe in individual taxation linked to the rights to benefits (and I mean benefits in the loosest sense here - the benefits of living in a rich economy, rather than subsistence benefits for the poor), and I think that this should start at the age of 18.

Doodledog Grants are repayable now anyway, so there wouldn't be much of an advantage.

I don't think both parents have to declare their income. My son, who is still at uni, claimed his grant based on his father's income because he usually lives with him and I was never asked to declare mine. For all anybody knows, I could be a millionaire (I wish!)

I was just thinking about my uni son. He said he has been shopping in asda as they do good deals on the steak, at which point my eyebrows started to raise....and then went on to say he buys rib eye steak and FRESH tuna! I was retelling this to my Mum and she said, what does he think he is? middle class? and we both had a good giggle so I think his allowance IS enough, even though he moans

Not like my son then. He's discovered Newcastle market and keeps telling me how cheap the veggies are.

The daughter of one friend ran out of money fairly quickly. the reason - she had been spending it on frivolous things, including some very chic and expensive underwear. She hadn't been taught how to manage her money.

I'm not sure my son even buys underwear. I think he relies on Santa to bring him new socks and pants.

I love a good market

As a student DD got so obsessed with the local market and bargains at 3.00pm on Saturday afternoon, plus all the reduced items in the supermarket that DS, also a student when visiting treated them both to fish and chips because, as he said, he couldn't stand another meal being told with every mouthful what a bargain the food he was eating had been, followed by details of where it come from and how much it cost.

Twnty five years later she remains a very savvy shopper.

growstuff

Not like my son then. He's discovered Newcastle market and keeps telling me how cheap the veggies are.

Oh it is AMAZING growstuff. One shop in particular (they also have a shop in the west end) has fresh fruit and veg at such low prices. No good taking a list though, just have to get what is cheap.

I don't think both parents have to declare their income. My son, who is still at uni, claimed his grant based on his father's income because he usually lives with him and I was never asked to declare mine.

Really? Maybe things have changed since mine went (10 years ago for my daughter). I'm sure I'm remembering right, as I was abroad on business at the time of her typically last minute application, and I had to contact Payroll at my workplace from SE Asia to ask them for details of things like tax codes which, unsurprisingly, I didn't have with me at the time ?. Mr Dog had done as much as he could from his end, but they wouldn't speak to him about my details (he has full access to my bank account, so could have checked online) as they had to have mine direct from me.

Whether grants are repayable or not isn't the point where my thoughts about individual taxation and 'benefits' are concerned. Someone who is expected to contribute all or most of a student's fees/living expenses has more control over them than a parent who doesn't. Probably in most cases that won't matter, but there are times when it absolutely does.

It is to do with who they usually reside with. Were you still with your husband doodledog? as that isn't clear. If you live together normally they take into account both parents, if you live apart through separation or divorce they only consider the resident parent as they are the person normally financially responsible for them, which I personally think is how it should be

Except that while on divorce and separation, some non-resident parents pay no child support, but if a parent is paying child support and still seeing their child, unfair though it may seem, their income should be taken into account.

the problem is 'some' unfortunately