The working classes just aren't very bright so have no chance of bettering themselves

Students loans are the biggest con trick played on the British public. They efectively give better off students interest free loans and leave poorer students with massive debts.They will in fact never be paid off by many, it's estimated that only 25% of loans will be paid off in full. It would have been cheaper to keep the old grant system which only paid money to those who needed it and better off students were funded by their family.

My loathing of means testing runs deep, and this is yet another example of its unfairness. Means testing grants for students based on parental income infantilises the students, who are young adults, and puts power in the hands of potentially controlling parents.

When I was a student I knew people whose parents' income was too high for them to get a grant and insisted that the student studied a subject that they (the parents) deemed suitable. Others refused to pay the rent or held that threat over their offspring if they did not comply with their rules, even away from home.

Far better, as I say pretty much every time means testing is suggested as a 'fair' way of doing things, to tax income at source (including inheritance and other unearned income) and then let people spend their money how they wish. Obliging some parents to pay for their children after they have already paid tax and may have other calls on their income is unfair when others get it free, and it can lead to the problems I describe above.

I am firmly in support of all education being free at point of study, with grants available to pay for rent and basic living expenses - a lot of the cost will come back via taxation in the long run anyway. This would change the dynamic between students and lecturers from customer/service provider back to student/educator, and this would work to everyone's benefit.

The current system means that everything is driven by the Student Satisfaction Survey, which is asking people to rate their courses before they have put their learning into any sort of practice, and basically asking if the course was worth £9k a year, which is impossible for a 20 year old to know.

As an aside, I would support a system that found a way to ensure that all graduates worked and paid tax and NI for a length of time - it is for those with more knowledge of economics than me (ie anyone!) to determine how long - or pay the money back, in the way that teacher training courses do, but I have no idea how this could work in practice, and accept that it probably wouldn't.

In the above post, when I say 'tax at source', I mean at a higher rate than now, so that things like health, education and transport can be fairly available to all, and people are not penalised for saving.

trisher

Students loans are the biggest con trick played on the British public. They efectively give better off students interest free loans and leave poorer students with massive debts.They will in fact never be paid off by many, it's estimated that only 25% of loans will be paid off in full. It would have been cheaper to keep the old grant system which only paid money to those who needed it and better off students were funded by their family.

The interest is 9%. It's only the students who don't pay back the loans who have them interest free.

Dinahmo

trisher

Students loans are the biggest con trick played on the British public. They efectively give better off students interest free loans and leave poorer students with massive debts.They will in fact never be paid off by many, it's estimated that only 25% of loans will be paid off in full. It would have been cheaper to keep the old grant system which only paid money to those who needed it and better off students were funded by their family.

The interest is 9%. It's only the students who don't pay back the loans who have them interest free.

"Once you leave your course, you'll only repay when your income is above the repayment threshold. The current UK threshold is £27,295 a year, £2,274 a month, or £524 a week. For example, if you earn £2,310 a month before tax, you'll repay £3 a month."
It's a lot less punitive than people think and puts students on a more equal footing IMO. In the past parents weren't always willing or able to make up the grant at least these days students don't have to depend on their parents.

I would say that's a very good example of where the views of some dont reflect the views of the traditional labour voters. I am not debating the rights and wrongs of student loans but there is a section of society for whom university is not their destination and who might feel slightly miffed in terms of being expected to contribute to the education of people who will always out earn them. There are obviously complex issues about the value we place on university education as opposed to vocational courses, and the issue that free university education benefits many of those from deprived backgrounds. But is this an issue that would secure votes for labour in the areas they have lost, I dont think so.

I can tell you, uni students have to rely on their parents! We have to send one of our sons an allowance and top up his student accommodation fee as the loan doesn't cover it. He regularly tells me how much less his allowance is compared to his housemates too <sigh>

Also, you only have one shot at uni because of the cost unless you come from a wealthier family. That is a lot of pressure on an 18yo who may well have chosen the wrong course

JaneJudge

I can tell you, uni students have to rely on their parents! We have to send one of our sons an allowance and top up his student accommodation fee as the loan doesn't cover it. He regularly tells me how much less his allowance is compared to his housemates too <sigh>

They all say that?.

I'm sure they do it has just been difficult this year too because of covid v work. He has always worked before, even when he was at school

The point is that the loans themselves actually cost more to administer, and will in the end have a similar cost (or more,) to that of student grants, but they were introduced to convince the public that they weren't paying the costs of students. They are of course, just in a different way. Thats why it's a con

The old grants system cost money too. Difficult to compare the costs because of the difference in student numbers between then and now.

JaneJudge

I'm sure they do it has just been difficult this year too because of covid v work. He has always worked before, even when he was at school

My GS is the same, although he has decided to go to Sussex which is within motoring distance from his home, in order to try not to rack up more debt.

He has always worked and is feeling the pinch lately. There is a government establishment near his home (something to do with the security services and it has a very good high end restaurant where GS has been working in the kitchen) but all closed since lock down.

Sun 09-May-21 09:52:52The elite in society whose access to culture both high and low is limitless through education, access, affordability etc have frequently sought to deny accessibility to socially control the masses, and what the government is seeking to do by denying fundings for the Arts in all its forms is no different.Absolutely. This sums up what I was trying to say very well.

Same here!

It should be an absolute right to have a chance at university in the sixth richest country in the world.

It is so depressing when something as fundamental as this is always discussed in terms of cost. It isn't going to be cost neutral, but nothing is. If we all contribute tax at a suitable rate, however, and tax evasion is viewed in the same way as tax avoidance and benefit 'scrounging', there should be enough to cover education, health and transport for all, with no need for expensive administration and damage to the life chances of those whose parents earn too much or too little.

The whole system of viewing citizens in terms of households, rather than individuals should be reviewed, IMO.

PS the above was from Doodledog and the system failed to copy in her name.

WW2, it's a shame for them but hopefully things will start becoming 'more normal' soon x

Alexa

PS the above was from Doodledog and the system failed to copy in her name.

It made it into a beautiful URL, though. Which went to a blank page

It’s not strictly true that youngsters only have one shot at a university education.
How about the OU?
They are open to anyone at any age so for someone who wishes to avoid an horrendous student debt, it’s an ideal option.

A friend’s daughter did her degree through them, despite having a full time job.

Ok I realise that students wouldn’t get the whole live-in university experience, but it’s got to be worth considering for some.

How did you do that Maisie?

Have you seen the fees for the OU recently Jennifer?

OU fees and funding

JenniferEccles Have you seen the cost of OU courses recently? Apart from being more flexible by allowing people to study at home and work round jobs and family, they're no longer a cheap option. The OU doesn't offer networking and the social advantages of a physical university either.

Snap JaneJudge

It isn't just about young people either and the university experience, it's about education being available to everyone of all ages.