The working classes just aren't very bright so have no chance of bettering themselves

Gannygangan

*Yes I read the 8 - 10 pupils figure. Impossible. The school would ho under financially in no time.
Around 20 per class more like, certainly at secondary.*

Not impossible.

A private school near me has 2 classes in each year, with about 12 children in each class

If the school has a large premises it can do this with ease

Are you absolutely sure that they have only 12 pupils in each class?

It’s possible that they charge huge fees though, in order to achieve such classes. The other option is that not enough people have applied to the school, so they are continuing with very small classes with the hope that things will improve.

I’ve just checked my grandson’s Form 7 list at his independent selective London school. There are 26 of them. There were fewer in the juniors though.

No - you have no idea what IQ these children have.

@ Sago. I don't think anyone will have a clue what their IQs are, nor the IQs of the rest of the children of their age, because children don't actually take any IQ tests at any time (unless their parents are trying to get them into junior MENSA)

As I read it, Saunder's thesis is loosely based on a study of children born in 1958. They would have taken the 11plus, which was based on an IQ test. Modern SATs aren't.

Just checked. They do indeed have on average 24 children per year. But the year is split into 2 classes.

Fees are pretty extortionate.

When I was in a private school I was in a class of 6 for the first 3 years!

I took one of. those online IQ tests.

I think I am the opposite of a genius.

Gannygangan

I took one of. those online IQ tests.

I think I am the opposite of a genius.

They are so dodgy, Gannygangan. A lot of it is based on cultural knowledge. Things you know or you don't, but nothing to do with your intelligence.

I took one that said I was at the level of a University Professor.
I thought I would just leave it there and not take any more

Gannygangan

I took one of. those online IQ tests.

I think I am the opposite of a genius.

?

Grannygangan that is very good then, I don’t think it’s the norm.
I wish I’d taught in a class of only 12 children, that would have made a difference to the stress levels

I’m working class. I have had a long and successful career as a software developer and have definitely ‘bettered myself’ in terms of income and property. I think that probably means I’m not thick as pig** but I remain working class ?

I taught classes of 32 in one of the most deprived areas in Scotland. When I think about what I could have achieved with a class of only twelve. A different world.

I was referring to primary schools as those are the ones I know about. Obviously numbers differ from school to school. Goodness whether 8 to 10 or 12-14 it’s still minimal compared to classes of 32 or 33.

How many posters on this thread have actually read the article?

"First, social mobility in Britain is widespread. The government’s own Social Mobility Commission accepts that 65 per cent of people born to working-class (routine and semi-routine worker) parents are upwardly mobile (more than one-third end up in professional-managerial positions). Just as important, 40 per cent of those with professional-managerial parents fail to retain this status. Changing your social class is more common than staying put."

The above is from the same article. I find some of this man's opinion's deeply unpleasant but in the interests of fairness I think people ought to read the whole article rather than cherry pick.

But foxie, he is saying that we have reached peak social mobility because the working class stock that remains isn't bright enough to achieve.
I realise that objective found in the title is to dismiss the idea that social mobility hasn't declined, but his remarks about the intelligence of the working class are sufficient to provide a rationale for not improving their educational 'offer'.

I admit that others haven't read it like that..

I don’t agree with him. I taught in an inner city primary. We had some very bright children. It used to upset me that more than not, even the brightest children didn’t go on to university. I loved hearing about the few that did.

Whitewavemark wrote:

"It may be more helpful if you think in terms of economic class or position."

I agree.
(WWM)
"But of course we do know that class is not just about the level of income, it come with differing values, expectation and culture."

Yes, but education does change cultural beliefs. There may be residual affection for the native peer or family culture , or there may be traumas associated with native culture, but at least education gives the person choices and interests beyond native culture.

Alexa

Whitewavemark wrote:

"It may be more helpful if you think in terms of economic class or position."

I agree.
(WWM)
"But of course we do know that class is not just about the level of income, it come with differing values, expectation and culture."

Yes, but education does change cultural beliefs. There may be residual affection for the native peer or family culture , or there may be traumas associated with native culture, but at least education gives the person choices and interests beyond native culture.

It is quite interesting when looking at culture.

Education can and does undoubtedly introduce other values and cultures to an individual, but I think the question remain just how much of an individuals value system is changed. I think one factor must be how much contact is retained with the culture in which the individual spent her formative years.

I think a lot depends on what is meant by the various class definitions. What constitutes working class, or managerial class these days? Is someone who supervises a team in local government, or in a call centre 'managerial', for example? Are their direct reports 'working class'?

To claim that, say, a skilled shipyard worker's son or daughter has become a call centre team leader, so has moved classes is disingenuous, in my opinion. It took years to train to be a 'skilled worker', whereas these days, when the majority of people work in offices (once a middle class marker) there is far less of a gap between the achievements of those 'in charge', who are usually not managing at all, but carrying out the executive decisions of others.

People cite heavy industry as examples of strict class divides and lack of mobility, but libraries, CIU clubs (which are now basically drinking establishments, but used to be pushers of temperance and education), the WEA and so on have all grown out of unionisation of workers in heavy industry. The Pitman Painters is another example of how people in very heavy manual jobs were capable of so much more if only they had been given the chance.

I agree that for the Paulas of this world, life is so much more difficult, and think that they should be given credit, not looked down upon, as is so often the case. So often on here, I see posts from people 'subtly' bragging about their grammar school education of 50 years ago, or the 'respectable' university they, or their descendants attend(ed), and this is more evidence of the things that hold back Paula and her friends. It is often not intelligence that stops them from getting into popular university courses, but interviews that ask about things beyond their experience, and application forms that take account of DoE awards, or Operation Raleigh gap years that are way beyond the reach of families in which everyone is working as many zero hours contracts as possible to put food on the table.

We can have as many anecdotes about individual families on here as we like - they prove nothing, really. What they do show, however, is the way in which we all tend to see things in terms of how our lives have worked out. I did X, so there is no reason why others can't do the same.

Also, coming from a working class background years ago probably meant dad in a stable job, mum around to do the chores, a cheaply rented council house and stability. All of these things are pipe dreams for many 'working class' families nowadays.

Good post doodle

That is a brilliant post doodle

Split shifts. Job patterns were so much more straightforward so parents could work split shifts. Even me and my husband managed to do it for some year (40s/50s in age) but my husbands own parents and mine were ships in the night, as they used to say! I think that is unfortunately much more difficult because of employment law and limits on contracts, zero hours, flexible working etc. It's great if you get the hours you want but quite crap if you don't or they are cut or chopped and changed.

There is no longer any such thing as class. All the indicators that previously defined class: skilled/unskilled manual occupation, rented home = working class, work in an office, own a house = middle class, no longer apply.

The only definition left is that of income.

Those living in poverty and with a dearth of opportunities will find it most difficult to move up, mainly because they will have been poorly educated and modern life is totally dependent on how many exams you have passed, every decent career requires more and more years of unpaid labour at schools, colleges and universities and the least well off are the ones least able to afford education.

Those living in poverty are not all the same, in fact they are probably the most diverse group of people in society. It includes immigrants from almost every country in the world, refugees likewise, it includes the disabled and the menatlly ill, many with addictions and those whose capacity to cope with life has failed them.

Each of those many groups is more or less mobile dpending on a host of different factors.

The idea that there is a nice group of people you can pin a label on and say you are (white) working class. Is ludicrous.

Interesting that you chose to attempt to analyse the diversity of the poor and class rather than addressing the question under focus which is whether the report by Saunders held merit.

The report by Saunders has no merit.

MaizieD

But foxie, he is saying that we have reached peak social mobility because the working class stock that remains isn't bright enough to achieve.
I realise that objective found in the title is to dismiss the idea that social mobility hasn't declined, but his remarks about the intelligence of the working class are sufficient to provide a rationale for not improving their educational 'offer'.

I admit that others haven't read it like that..

MaisieD that's very different from saying "The working classes just aren't very bright so have no chance of bettering themselves" which is how you headed your post. His focus on IQ is where I find most to dispute. No social class has a monopoly on academic ability/IQ (however you want to describe it) but the middle classes are very adept at using the educational system, have the money to pay for private tutors, live in areas where there are high achieving schools or can move there, can afford independent school fees and know which unis and courses will give their children a good chance to succeed in life. If they have a child who is not academically able, they can provide financial support whilst they are alive and a decent inheritance when they die. Doesn't feel like equal opportunity to me so anything society can do to give less well off children a bit of a leg up, seems fair to me.

Nature or nature the discussion goes on as it has for years. I have an opinion, not conclusive of course but just an observation, Noticed that there are intelligent people who simply don’t want to be bothered with understanding political goings on and resort to either reading popular newspapers which seem to tell their readers what to think via headlines or even only look at the headlines of news reports on the tv.. in other words they don’t bother to look deep enough into issues that may be of concern. I know middle class people who have had no idea of Johnson’s colourful past and ignore the accusations of sleaze which have been directed at the Tory government. On the other hand I have known working class people who have made a point of reading and absorbing political happenings and make decisions based on experience and common sense.