The working classes just aren't very bright so have no chance of bettering themselves

He is Emeritus so may be long retired? I reckon the 50% my children inherited must have come from my other half

Hmm, it would be pretty interesting to talk with a person who wrote this

JaneJudge

It has reminded me of this I wonder whether Professor Idiot understands simple cartoons

That is so good, JaneJudge, thanks for posting it.

Thanks for this discussion, folks. something to keep me sane today.

I'm glad that others, too, think that the emphasis on cultural determinism has dangerous implications.

I worked in a school in an area of high deprivation. children were encouraged to work hard to achieve academically and many did just that. But, as the HT said sadly, we tell them that academic achievement will bring them success, but what prospects do they actually have in an area where decent jobs are scarce and unemployment is a norm?

I appreciate that people like Marydoll have determinedly risen above their circumstances and achieved through their hard work, but should we really be feeling that the only way to achieve is through struggle and determination. What about the capable children who cannot overcome their circumstances because they just aren't made that way? Should life be a fight all the time?

We were an incredibly lucky generation in many ways, even the non achievers had the prospect of a steady job and security. Now that has been pulled from under people's feet with the destruction of our manufacturing base and the rise of the financial and service industries (I know I'm being simplistic here). I fear that the inevitable austerity policy that will follow the easing of the pandemic will make things worse.

Totally disagree, three of my grandchildren attended private schools, they received a vastly diverse education, one was entered into to private school because the state school was tolerant of bullying, the child is now thriving, back to their normal self. The other two obtained degrees on their own merit, have successful careers , one in Europe, one at home, no networking there. People are happy to knock private education, only seeing what the media want to print, don’t forget the parents still pay taxes towards funding state schools.

keepingquiet

Private education much extolled by the Tories has very little to do with education and everything to do with networking.

No it doesn’t. My own children achieved very well, chartered accountant/financial manager, barrister, doctor. We were teachers, went to ordinary state schools, the children of working class parents. We struggled to put our children through local independent schools, but we did from age eleven. We did without in order to do this. They achieved well and attended University of Wales, University of Oxford, and University College London. No networking, we didn’t know anyone to network with. Our children achieved well because they were offered better schools and they worked hard, and we were supportive parents. I’m wondering if you actually know anything about independent schools to be honest.

Lin52 well said.

siziewoozie all I can say is that DH and myself, both state educated and our two privately educated children have achieved what we achieved without any help from any network, nor was I ever aware of them in my career.

Except, human life is riddled by networks from the person on the village network who can recommend a good electrician, to our builder, who when he needs an extra brickie when demand is high knows someone, who knows someone, who might know a guy.....

DS and I share a hobby - archaeology - except he has gone professional, but when he was at school and needed to do a weeks work experience, I used my membership of the local archaeology network to speak to a professional archaeologist I knew, who put me in touch with someone else who could offer the required experience.

Networking we all do it all the time.

I was talking to someone the other day who was telling me that before her (privately educated) son taught in his current private school, he had a Job in a state school where ‘he was actually expected to teach 30 children!). I quietly pointed out that 30 is usual for a state school with max being 33. It was a total revelation to her.
In fee paying schools classes of 8 or 10 are the norm so clearly they all get more time and attention from the staff and the peer group they mix with are generally similar to themselves. It’s a kind of bubble.

MaizieD, What about the capable children who cannot overcome their circumstances because they just aren't made that way? Should life be a fight all the time?

I was a shy child, totally lacking in confidence, full of self doubt, ashamed of who I was, always being put down by my mother. Eventually, after years of this, at seventeen I decided enough was enough. She even tried to control my marriage. Initially I wasn't capable of changing things.
To this day, I still carry my mother's legacy, I have my fake confident personna, but deep down, I still doubt myself! On the other hand, the friends and colleagues I have had from well off background had always appeared so confident, because they were brought up to be that way.

No it doesn’t. My own children achieved very well, chartered accountant/financial manager, barrister, doctor. We were teachers, went to ordinary state schools, the children of working class parents.

The article wasn't about the prospects of the already achieving middle classes, maddyone It's thesis was that the 'working classes' are where they are because they are not bright enough to achieve and that their children will not achieve either because their breeding makes them also not bright enough to achieve. Though his conclusion is startlingly at odds with his thesis.

It's interesting though that you stress your working class origins. Why should the current generation be any different from yours?

Incidentally, my DD is a university lecturer. Achieved solely via state education.

Would you have managed to attend university if it had cost you £27,000*, *Marydoll?

(*or its equivalent at the time)

....she even tried to control my marriage....

Marydoll oh how this resonates with me. Perhaps we should have a new thread just about this. My mother is 93 years old now, and I do an enormous amount for her, and I love her but........
I do understand this so well.

maddyone

^....she even tried to control my marriage....^

Marydoll oh how this resonates with me. Perhaps we should have a new thread just about this. My mother is 93 years old now, and I do an enormous amount for her, and I love her but........
I do understand this so well.

Or a new thread about the misconceptions about private schools!
It wouldn't be fair to derail this thread.

MaizieD

^No it doesn’t. My own children achieved very well, chartered accountant/financial manager, barrister, doctor. We were teachers, went to ordinary state schools, the children of working class parents.^

The article wasn't about the prospects of the already achieving middle classes, maddyone It's thesis was that the 'working classes' are where they are because they are not bright enough to achieve and that their children will not achieve either because their breeding makes them also not bright enough to achieve. Though his conclusion is startlingly at odds with his thesis.

It's interesting though that you stress your working class origins. Why should the current generation be any different from yours?

Incidentally, my DD is a university lecturer. Achieved solely via state education.

I understand exactly Maizie. I was addressing a comment which claims privately educated children do well due to networking. I was showing that my children did well without networking. I’m really pleased that your child did well at state school, because all children should be able to access a fantastic state school. In my area unfortunately, the state schools are not excellent, they are very average, so we chose private education. My husband already taught in a local independent school and I taught in a state infant school, and it was difficult financially for us, but we managed.
We did come from working class origins. My father an engineering fitter, my mother a teaching assistant. My father in law was a bricklayer, my mother in law a cleaner.

Yes I agree Ellianne.

Maizie, the answer is a definite No!. University education was free in Scotland in the 70s.
However, I did fund my second degree tuition myself!

There certainly are misconceptions about independent schools Ellianne. It was claimed on this thread that private schools have only 8-10 pupils in a class. My four grandchildren all attend independent schools. They are in classes of 18, and 17. Only the one in nursery class has approximately 10-12 children in any one session.

maddyone

There certainly are misconceptions about independent schools Ellianne. It was claimed on this thread that private schools have only 8-10 pupils in a class. My four grandchildren all attend independent schools. They are in classes of 18, and 17. Only the one in nursery class has approximately 10-12 children in any one session.

Yes I read the 8 - 10 pupils figure. Impossible. The school would ho under financially in no time.
Around 20 per class more like, certainly at secondary.

Or a new thread about the misconceptions about private schools!
It wouldn't be fair to derail this thread.

That would be a really nice idea if someone would do it.

The cost of accommodation at university and giving 'pocket money' is what limits a lot of working class children down too. I was quite aghast at how much we had to top up, on top of the grant. It didn't cover the basic accommodation, the only way it would cover it is if it was a shared room! I remember my friends son (state educated, very high achiever - WC family) was offered an unconditional on a very sought after course at a London university and couldn't take it as they couldn't afford the top up for the accommodation costs so he went to a Midlands university instead. These are kids in their 20s now, for timescale purposes

god that post doesn't make sense. I think I have menopause brain fog constantly atm, decipher at your peril

In the City in which I live, the “ working class families” do fairly well sadly we have another class that is rarely addressed.
There are children of parents who have never worked, families that rely on growing and selling cannabis for a living, families that can barely get out of bed in the morning to take their children to school, to have a parent in prison is quite normal and drug taking and crime is part of everyday life. .
These are the children who will have a low IQ.

Lin52

Totally disagree, three of my grandchildren attended private schools, they received a vastly diverse education, one was entered into to private school because the state school was tolerant of bullying, the child is now thriving, back to their normal self. The other two obtained degrees on their own merit, have successful careers , one in Europe, one at home, no networking there. People are happy to knock private education, only seeing what the media want to print, don’t forget the parents still pay taxes towards funding state schools.

Nobody is knocking private education far from it! We recognise the boost it gives children, what we are saying is that some children succeed in spite of all the obstacles, in the state sector.

*Yes I read the 8 - 10 pupils figure. Impossible. The school would ho under financially in no time.
Around 20 per class more like, certainly at secondary.*

Not impossible.

A private school near me has 2 classes in each year, with about 12 children in each class

If the school has a large premises it can do this with ease

Sago

In the City in which I live, the “ working class families” do fairly well sadly we have another class that is rarely addressed.
There are children of parents who have never worked, families that rely on growing and selling cannabis for a living, families that can barely get out of bed in the morning to take their children to school, to have a parent in prison is quite normal and drug taking and crime is part of everyday life. .
These are the children who will have a low IQ.

No - you have no idea what IQ these children have.

What you may be certain that these children on average are low achievers because of the abysmal start that they have in life.

I refer you to Judgejane’s cartoon.