Is Israel completely beyond any control?

Kali2

Sorry but this does not make sense.

I was referring to my post regarding the Hamas supporters in Golders Green, sorry if it was unclear.

Sorry but this does not make sense.

Kali2

Look at the map posted by Gagajo and other posts about the history of the conflict. What are the Palestinians supposed to do? They have no other way, and violence begets violence.

What are they supposed to do?

I know, Palestine is in a no win situation, I have not got the answer but I do not think my above post is it.

This is such a sad, frustrating topic.
I can only add that part of the reason for USA and UK, plus other western nations, support Israel because she is the only democratic country in the ME who will protect their interests in the area, still feared by them.

Look at the map posted by Gagajo and other posts about the history of the conflict. What are the Palestinians supposed to do? They have no other way, and violence begets violence.

What are they supposed to do?

Sorry couldn’t do a link but this is a screen grab
(Apologies for graphic language, but I thought it was relevant to this thread)

There is a video on Twitter showing cars driving through Golders Green and parking up outside the Jewish Centre...
These cars are draped with Hamas flags and the occupants are shouting f**k the Jews and rape their daughters.

No metropolitan police in sight, surely this counts as a hate crime ?

www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-rocket-fire-israeli-strikes-gaza-run-into-second-day-2021-05-11/ Hamas must take the blame for this.

When Orthodox Jews are demonstrating in both London and US, saying the Israeli govt is wrong, that should educate the rest of the world.
Groups of Orthodox Jews in Israel said the same thing.

If you want to get some idea of the relationship between the Israeli government and the Palestinian authorities I would recommend that you look at the Amnesty report for 2020.

It is a history it forced evictions, transfers and demolitions, along with discrimination against the Palestinians.
The Israeli police force are accused of unlawful killings and excessive use of force.
The Israeli government restricts the freedom of movement by its illegal blockade by land sea and air.
Israel arbitrarily detain hundreds of palestinians, and where they are tried the military courts do not meet international standards for fairness.
Torture is used on children and adults with impunity. Medical help is denied.

Israel deny human right authorities entry to to the OPT, and freedom of expression.

Gender based violence is used as a form of control.

Any Israeli citizen refusing military service for reasons of conscientious objection is imprisoned

We had Jewish friends over on Friday- they were in tears, of shame, anger and despair. Their adult children are still in Israel and all in the process of moving away, to US, UK and Europe.

They are Jews, and not antisemitic!

Whitewavemark2

Baggs

My opinion is that the original partition stood a chance, provided both sides could be persuaded to recognise each other’s right to exist

Yes. But Hamas and Hezbollah have never recognised Israel's right to exist.

They have only been in existence since the 80s.

... and became what they are because of ... Israeli taking more and more land, destructions, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, burning of plantations, olives, almonds, etc.

Hamas and Hezbollah didn't just appear out of nowhere for no reason.

Baggs

^My opinion is that the original partition stood a chance, provided both sides could be persuaded to recognise each other’s right to exist^

Yes. But Hamas and Hezbollah have never recognised Israel's right to exist.

They have only been in existence since the 80s.

grandtanteJE65

Most of the land the original Jewish settlers in what is now Israel settled was bought by them from the Arabs or Turks who owned that land - and paid for.

It has not been stolen from anyone but bought and sold as land has been for ages.

If you want to talk of theft, try remembering that practically from A.D. 70 when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, the forefathers of the Palestinian Arabs were allowed to settle in Jerusalem, but Jews were denied even the right to visit the place, by both the Turkish or Saracen rulers and the Christian rulers.

What about land in the West Bank?

My opinion is that the original partition stood a chance, provided both sides could be persuaded to recognise each other’s right to exist

Yes. But Hamas and Hezbollah have never recognised Israel's right to exist.

The US shouldn’t ( physically) intervene and neither should we ( or anyone else.)
The US can only try and use talks with the Israeli government,
And even that has it’s limits.
HAMAS is a real problem for the Palestinians, not their protector, although I understand how they must feel.
The best solution would be if HAMAS disbanded and Israel stopped hawkish behaviour about removing Palestinian homes where they have lived for generations and building in the West Bank and both sides stopped marches and celebrations which inflame the other. Hard to see it happening though.

Yes, he arrived there yesterday. But I honestly am not sure that Biden intends to pursue this issue very far. His focus is more on domestic issues and the Far East.

We can live in hope.

Whitewavemark2- my thoughts too.

I thought I saw on Andrew Marr this morning that POTUS has / is sending someone out to negotiate John Kerry (?), apologies I was not fully concentrating.

I agree WWM, so do a lot of people I know IRL and not just lefties either.

Problem is, the US won't intervene. If it was going to, it would be now, under Biden but he's already shown his colours in relation to this. And the current UK gov certainly won't.

My opinion is that the original partition stood a chance, provided both sides could be persuaded to recognise each other’s right to exist, and that Israel had not adopted an expansionist policy into Palestinian land.

But we are where we are now, and imo the world which has been so instrumental in the entire miserable episode can’t sit back and do nothing when innocents are being killed and maimed on both sides.

Israeli stating that if he doesn't steal the Palestinian's woman's house, another Israeli will. It's hardly selling.

www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/4/if-i-dont-steal-your-home-someone-else-will-jewish-settler-says

grandtanteJE65

Most of the land the original Jewish settlers in what is now Israel settled was bought by them from the Arabs or Turks who owned that land - and paid for.

It has not been stolen from anyone but bought and sold as land has been for ages.

If you want to talk of theft, try remembering that practically from A.D. 70 when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, the forefathers of the Palestinian Arabs were allowed to settle in Jerusalem, but Jews were denied even the right to visit the place, by both the Turkish or Saracen rulers and the Christian rulers.

I think that we have established that is what happened regarding the land holding in Palestine.

What is the point at issue is the partition, and what has flowed from that.

Most of the land the original Jewish settlers in what is now Israel settled was bought by them from the Arabs or Turks who owned that land - and paid for.

It has not been stolen from anyone but bought and sold as land has been for ages.

If you want to talk of theft, try remembering that practically from A.D. 70 when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, the forefathers of the Palestinian Arabs were allowed to settle in Jerusalem, but Jews were denied even the right to visit the place, by both the Turkish or Saracen rulers and the Christian rulers.

Israel was able to do so because of its efficient and rapid development of an arms industry, that had its roots in secret development. during the 1930s.