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Political implications of Johnson's Catholicisim

(309 Posts)

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Kali2 Mon 31-May-21 08:52:41

So it seems it is not 'just about' the wedding, but other implications

''Apparently the catholic church states that if a catholic marries a non catholic in any marriage not conducted by the catholic church, the marriage is not recognised as valid. By accepting those terms in order to proceed with his marriage, Johnson is accepting that having been baptised a catholic, he not only still is a catholic, he has always been a catholic.
This has important constitutional implications which I am sure will not have entered his head. Firstly, he has just "come out" as the first catholic Prime Minister in the UK's history.
Secondly, there are certain functions which are the sole responsibility of the Prime Minister which Johnson, as a catholic, is actually barred by law from performing.
The one which come immediately to mind is that under an act passed in the early 19th century and still in force, no catholic is permitted to advise the Queen on the appointment of any office holder in the Church of England.
Any catholic doing so is immediately rendered ineligible to hold any office under the crown for the rest of their life. This is where it gets interesting. Since Johnson became PM, a new Archbishop of York and at least one other diocesan Bishop have been appointed.
The procedure for such appointments is that a committee of the Church of England select a nominee and forward the details to the Prime Minister for approval. This is not automatic. Margaret Thatcher turned down one nomination for a bishop when she was PM. Assuming the PM is agreeable however, they advise the Queen to make the appointment. It would appear therefore that Johnson, a catholic, has advised the Queen regarding at least two appointments in the Church of England contrary to English law, and is therefore barred from life from holding any office of state, and is consequently no longer Prime Minister. I await developments with interest.
I think we should all speak out in mass, not just the Pope. As he is well over due a comment on the UK's human rights issues alone. As now even Amnesty International have Johnson and his vile Conservative Government on their list.''

as explained by an expert responding to an article in The Telegraph.

theworriedwell Sun 06-Jun-21 21:13:33

To be honest with you a bit of quiet hypocrisy would have been a welcome relief. Who wants little kids listening to filth for 3 hrs? Apart from that it was very boring, I mean sex is fine but listening to an immature young man going on about it isn't my thing particularly when it is so loud that you end up with a headache.

lizzypopbottle Sun 06-Jun-21 17:31:13

At least you didn't have to put up with total hypocrisy, theworriedwell! Of course he might've been exaggerating! Who knows? 😂

theworriedwell Sun 06-Jun-21 15:41:00

Mothers not months!

theworriedwell Sun 06-Jun-21 15:40:23

I was on a train a while ago, young man spent the whole journey, nearly 3 hours, announcing details of his sex life in a loud voice. I think he was trying to impress the two soldiers in uniform who were sitting near him. He was particularly keen to inform everyone of his girlfriends "party piece."

When I got up as the train approached my station he also got up to leave the train, as we waited to get off he started again. I asked him if he really thought the children, the young months, the elderly people on the train really wanted to hear it? To give him his due he didn't get stroppy, said, "Have I been told off?" and thankfully shut up.

I'm afraid if I had to choose between someone muttering prayers and him I'd choose the prayers every time.

I have no idea of his religious beliefs or lack of them just to clarify.

lizzypopbottle Sun 06-Jun-21 14:30:53

I have no religion and would prefer to live in a secular state but I would uphold anyone's right to worship inside their religious building in company with others of a likemind. I'm happy for people to wear their choice of clothes to attend worship, although I'm not sure if e.g. there's any religious text that forces women to cover themselves completely.

What I dislike is having someone's religion practised in my face. I was on a long train journey yesterday, (over five hours cross country, stopping everywhere) and the train manager reminded passengers, on pulling out of every station, that face coverings must be worn and only window seats used.

At Sheffield, a young couple joined the train. Despite yet another announcement about masks and seating, neither of them wore a mask and the young man sat next to his companion in the aisle seat across from me, thus shortening the distance between him and me.

After a while I became aware of ceaseless, irritating muttering. I glanced across to see the young man reading, his lips moving. I realised it was a prayer book and both had rosary beads and a crucifix. They prayed audibly, non-stop until the guard appeared to check tickets. He asked why they weren't wearing masks. Apparently, both were exempt. They were so devout, I'm sure they wouldn't lie.

He made them separate so both were in a window seat. As he moved away down the carriage, they both moved into their respective aisle seats, leaned out and conversed diagonally across the aisle. At this point, the girl was even nearer to me. The guard returned and made them sit back at their windows. As soon as he had left, after a good look to make sure he'd gone, the guy rejoined the girl, they had a laugh about it and then resumed their annoying praying. I'm sure their devotions would guarantee them forgiveness for risking others' health!

I was very glad when they left the train at York.

Alegrias1 Sun 06-Jun-21 12:34:02

Thanks for the clarification MawBe.

MawBe Sun 06-Jun-21 12:02:05

Alegrias1

^The Church of England is the established church (not “official”) just as the Scottish Presbyterian Church or Church of Scotland to give it its official title is in Scotland.^

So, on the topic of religion, rather than name calling and accusation.... surely there is no established church in Scotland?

The Church of Scotland (CoS; Scots: The Scots Kirk; Scottish Gaelic: Eaglais na h-Alba), also known by its Scots language name, the Kirk, is the national church of Scotland.It is Presbyterian, having no head of faith or leadership group, and adheres to the Bible and Westminster Confession; the Church of Scotland celebrates two sacraments, Baptism and the Lord's Supper, as well as five other rites, such as confirmation and matrimony.It is a member of the World Communion of Reformed Churches

Despite being brought up in the Church of Scotland, I realise I was wrong to refer to it as the “established” church, when I should have said “National”.

Callistemon Sun 06-Jun-21 11:09:06

Our whole history since the reign of Henry VIII has been intimately bound up with anti Catholicism and the integration of the Anglican church in government

The Anglican church is a worldwide organisation.
Do you mean the Church of England, MaizieD?

The Church in Wales is Anglican but not established.

Callistemon Sun 06-Jun-21 11:01:00

On the face of it this thread looks like the usual mixture of ignorant and informed comment interspersed with some irrelevencies

You're right - the Original Post was ignorant and also ill- informed. An explanation right at the beginning explained why and subsequent posts reinforced that.

But no, for some reason, facts are not acceptable.

Callistemon Sun 06-Jun-21 10:54:32

MaizieD

I have just read all this thread. I would just say to certain posters that Kali isn't who you think she is and that the increasingly hysterical attacks on her just make you look stupid.

I'm not attacking Kali2 but I am very disturbed at the undercurrent of anti-Catholicism on the thread and by posters seemingly being attacked for posting about their faith.

Try substituting the word Islam for Catholicism and see what you think and how long the thread would be allowed to stay before being deleted.

Alegrias1 Sun 06-Jun-21 10:43:02

The Church of England is the established church (not “official”) just as the Scottish Presbyterian Church or Church of Scotland to give it its official title is in Scotland.

So, on the topic of religion, rather than name calling and accusation.... surely there is no established church in Scotland?

MaizieD Sun 06-Jun-21 10:11:32

Chewbacca

^Unless you live in a country were both are very strongly linked.^

Which we, in the UK, don't.

Well, we do, actually. Why do you think all those Anglican bishops sit, as of right, in the House of Lords? Why did we get rid of James II? Why weren't RCs allowed to take degrees at Oxford & Cambridge, or marry a member of the RF, or have commission in the Navy or the Army? etc. etc...

Our whole history since the reign of Henry VIII has been intimately bound up with anti Catholicism and the integration of the Anglican church in government.

It may not apply so much now as people become less interested in religion and more generally tolerant, but it is still formally important.

MaizieD Sun 06-Jun-21 10:04:22

Kalu

^Didn’t you get banned in connection with the other poster?^

Have I wrongly assumed Kali was a new member Maizie?

Your nasty dig at Maw and the OP’s vile post to Marydoll who has simply posted her in depth knowledge of the Catholic Church which the OP refuses to accept. Reminds me of a certain poster now, who lives in Switzerland.
My apologies if I have completely got this wrong Kali

No I don't think you have assumed wwrongly. I firmly believe that she is a new member, for very good reasons.

I was referring to the poster that Maw and others seem to think that she is.

I didn't see any 'vile posts' to Marydoll. I don't even see a refusal to accept what Mdoll has posted. Just some querying. I saw a lot of digs at Kali. Not specifically from Mdoll, from lots of posters. I've seen it before on other threads. It's not pleasant.

If I turn out to be wrong I shall be extremely embarrassed, but I will still object strongly to the attacks.

Kalu Sun 06-Jun-21 09:42:32

Didn’t you get banned in connection with the other poster?

Have I wrongly assumed Kali was a new member Maizie?

Your nasty dig at Maw and the OP’s vile post to Marydoll who has simply posted her in depth knowledge of the Catholic Church which the OP refuses to accept. Reminds me of a certain poster now, who lives in Switzerland.
My apologies if I have completely got this wrong Kali

Marydoll Sun 06-Jun-21 09:22:01

Maizie, the only umbrage I have taken, is to your comment about me being hysterical , personal attacks on myself by you and Kali and the misinformation posted by Kali2

As for multiple identities, I'm sure GNHQ will be able to investigate that, I have no interest in the matter at all.
What an unpleasant post, Maizie, but as a member of GN, it is your right to post what you like.
Have you actually read the whole thread?

LilyGransnet (GNHQ) Sun 06-Jun-21 09:14:06

Hi all

Can we have a bit of peace and love, please?
We may have to take this thread down if it continues in this direction.

Chewbacca Sun 06-Jun-21 09:12:44

Arrogant as ever MaisieD

Peasblossom Sun 06-Jun-21 09:12:42

Kali2

Oh if only you did put that into practise

Well, I don’t know anything about mistaken identities but the above personal comment really did seem to cross the line, don’t you think, MaizieD?
I’ve been following this thread and haven’t seen any other comment that was quite so pointed.

I don’t know why it disturbed me quite so much.

MaizieD Sun 06-Jun-21 09:02:19

If you want to take umbrage at someone trying to discuss a topic that's entirely your affair, Marydoll. On the face of it this thread looks like the usual mixture of ignorant and informed comment interspersed with some irrelevencies. Nothing out of the ordinary. No reason for the bullying undertones to creep in, apart from the fact that some posters have mistaken another poster's identity. I didn't actually think that you were one of them, but if the cap fits, do wear it...

Marydoll Sun 06-Jun-21 08:49:53

Thanks for those offering support, however I'm not in the least bit bothered by the personal remarks directed at me. I have my big girl pants on.
To accuse me of being hysterical MaizieD is laughable, its admirable that you have leapt to Kali's defence, yet again! 😉
May I point out, I'm not the one pretending to be an expert on Catholicism. However, I think that after sixty six years of being a practising Catholic, I know a wee bit about my faith.
I have lived my faith in a quiet and unobtrusive manner, never trying to impose my beliefs on anyone, but I certainly do not claim to be an expert.
Until now, never having considered myself to be evangelical, (there is much in my faith that needs redressed), I still couldn't allow the posting of misinformation to go unchallenged. I called out Kali, (without insulting her) and as she has done in the past, she found it difficult to accept that she had made errors, so resorted to personal insults and accusations of people bullying her.
The only thing which is annoying me is that she hasn't responded to any of the questions asked of her, just changes tack and tries to direct attention away from herself.

Playing devil's advocate here: in Scotland there is an anti hate law and a very small portion of the comments on this thread suggest that there is religious bias here. Could that law be applicable here, after all I am a Scottish citizen and I appear to have been targeted because of my faith? 🤔 Let's throw that into the mix. 😉
A GN poster was banned recently for casual racism, does this thread show examples of casual bigotry?

I had no intention of reporting this robust thread, I wanted posters to read what was being said and offer their own opinions. However, I'm now seriously considering it, as the insults seem to be continuing.

MaizieD Sun 06-Jun-21 08:37:41

MawBe

Of course not MaizieD - only you did say the same thing before con brio which must have turned out a tad embarrassing smile

Sorry? When did I do that? Evidence?

But you are absolutely wrong this time.

Didn't you get banned in connection with the other poster?

MawBe Sun 06-Jun-21 08:14:51

Of course not MaizieD - only you did say the same thing before con brio which must have turned out a tad embarrassing smile

MerylStreep Sun 06-Jun-21 07:42:38

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MerylStreep Sun 06-Jun-21 07:38:56

welbeck

OP why are you being horrid to Marydoll.
she has done nothing to deserve it. far from it.

Welbeck
Because this poster can’t, won’t, refuses to accept that a practicing catholic ( and beyond practicing) knows far far more about the subject than she ever will.
She has form on this type of bullying.

MaizieD Sun 06-Jun-21 07:34:39

I have just read all this thread. I would just say to certain posters that Kali isn't who you think she is and that the increasingly hysterical attacks on her just make you look stupid.