Brexit, Polls have turned, not just one, but all of them, but one

Brexiters know that the ship is turning, and that clearly a massive proportion of those who voted for Brexit, for whatever reason and persuaded by whatever lie- be they fishermen, farmers, small business owners, big business owners, people who live in the EU or had dreams to do so- and so many more, have now seen the light. They get it now- and they can see that 'project fear' was indeed 'project reality'.

We have chosen to be a third country, and so no good whingeing (oh I hate this word) about being faced with 3rd country rules. No good blaming the EU for insisting we face to the consequences of that choice- and insist on borders and checks- to stop our future low quality goods and foods, produced cheaply by low paid workers with low protection, etc. entering their united market. This is not spite, this is pure common sense, and their 100% right. Don't blame them!

Some British expat in Spain are facing deportation. I wonder how many of them were fooled into voting for brexit?

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/europe-news/british-expats-spain-brexit-deportation-residency-8032656

Alegrias1

*Opinion*: The EU are being spiteful

Fact: The EU are treating us just like any other 3rd country, which is what we are now.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but if its based on misconceptions or prejudices, they're going to get called out on it Yammy

Who is going to chair the debate and come to a conclusion accepted by all putting right the misconceptions, YOU? There will never be consensus on Brexit or we would not have needed the vote.
We all have misconceptions and prejudices but if we are not allowed to air them without "Clever" remarks you will find your membership falling.
Not everyone is of equal intelligence or knowledge but we should be allowed to say what we feel. Isn't that what Gransnet is for. A forum to help others not to make them feel small and idiots. You'll end up with a small group who appear to know each other just arguing with each other. It's refreshing to see others point of view.
Your fact is just your opinion some might disagree.

I voted out and would again! Best thing we ever did. We’re not fully out yet anyway but just wait until we. Britain will boom!

A poll of 3997 people it's of no consequent

I am sorry that this country is more divided who were the people responsible?

Let's just remind ourselves that before 2015 less than 5% of the UK population rated our membership of the EU as one of their main concerns.

Powerful vested interests changed all that and divided us into Leavers and Remainers - they caused the disharmony and conflict which is likely to persist for as long as the damage done by Brexit continues.

Have it your own way MaisieD and varian, it really makes no difference to me. But even saying
"How can you not agree with the truth?" demonstrates breathtaking naiviety. Remember, there's your truth, their truth and, somewhere in the middle, is the absolute truth.

As for the allegations of name calling, jeering etc, I have not heard that from the Remain side, just accusations from the Leave side. Then you're as guilty of not listening properly as they are.

And whilst you are so insistent on seeing "sides"; you're aiding this country being segregated and marginalised even more. I repeat: if people feel unheard and disenfranchised, they will "revolt vote", even if it causes them more suffering in the long run.

But crack on; you seem to thrive on, and enjoy, disharmony and conflict.

The problem was that the Leave campaigners never presented the voters with facts, only lies.

As for the allegations of name calling, jeering etc, I have not heard that from the Remain side, just accusations from the Leave side.

Or maybe it's just that they don't agree with you Alegrias;

How can you not agree with the truth?

What do you suggest, when other posters are mistaken in their assertions?

Once you've presented someone with accurate facts and somewhere for them to cross reference those facts for themselves, there is little else you can do, surely? It seems counterproductive, to me at any rate, to bludgeon people into the ground with relentless insults, name calling, jeering and impatience. They just stop listening, become defensive and retreat even further into feeling disenfranchised. And it's that national sense of disenfranchisement that caused, or was certainly contributory, to Brexit.

After all Daniel Hannan (now a Lord because of his contribution to brexit) persuaded countless people to vote Leave by assuring us all that "No=-one is talking about leaving the single market"

Greengage

I voted in the first referendum and voted for the Common Market (EEC). Had I known that the politicians would use that to produce the EU, I would have voted against. In the second referendum I voted out.
I still believe in a Common Market. I do not believe in a political union.

In which case, I presume you wouldn't mind if we rejoined the Single Market? That would solve a lot of problems.

I voted in the first referendum and voted for the Common Market (EEC). Had I known that the politicians would use that to produce the EU, I would have voted against. In the second referendum I voted out.
I still believe in a Common Market. I do not believe in a political union.

We had this over and over again in the run up to the fraudulent referendum of 2016 - factual information countered by nonsense and the readers of the right wing gutter press were encouraged to believe the nonsense.

Yes, I am sarky, sorry. And I have no patience.

But I get completely fed up with the constant stream of made up stuff. When somebody comes on and says night is day, you know. Its not an opinion, its just wrong. And when several people say it one after another without reading what other posters have said, is that doing anything to bridge the divide?

I don't want people to agree with each other all the time, but I also don't want people to just make pronouncements on things and then not expect to be challenged on them if they are just plain....wrong. I didn't challenge the van der Leyen contracts thing, you might notice, because its a valid point.

Reasoned argument doesn't work. Only sarcasm left. However you are right, it doesn't help. I'll work on it.

What do you suggest, when other posters are mistaken in their assertions?

No, it's intended to show that people are using arguments that have been disproved again and again, but that they haven't had the courtesy to read other members posts before posting themselves.

Or maybe it's just that they don't agree with you Alegrias; have you considered that? I'm broadly in the same camp as you regarding Brexit but, as I said up thread, the haranguing and belittling of posters that think differently to us just contributes to the divide and does none of us any good. If you just want to have a closed shop discussion, where the same posters go round and round in circles, all agreeing with each other, then an open forum isn't the best place to achieve that.
But shutting down debate, deliberately chasing away posters with opposing views and using sneery, snarky remarks is probably what contributed to the political chasm that caused Brexit. Please, stop adding to that.

Chewbacca

Can we just stop using the words " Groundhog Day"? Its insulting and is clearly intended to stop people disagreeing with the user.

Chewbacca
It could be a good description of the seemingly endless threads, many of which were started by the same poster, on GN since June 2016, though!

Ever increasing circles?

No, it's intended to show that people are using arguments that have been disproved again and again, but that they haven't had the courtesy to read other members posts before posting themselves.

I'll stop though.

Can we just stop using the words " Groundhog Day"? Its insulting and is clearly intended to stop people disagreeing with the user.

As a Scot, I’d really like to know if the EU would want Scotland. I wish they’d tell us outright, one way or the other. Knowing might affect some people’s vote if there’s another referendum.

like to tell people to stop whinging, crying over spilt milk and, basically, suck it up.

I sometimes think that they find it a bit embarrassing to be told what is going wrong and they'd rather we just kept quiet about it. ?

In counterpoint to Yammy's post.

Pro EU posters tend to come up with concrete examples of things that have gone wrong, how their lives have been negatively impacted, that kind of thing.

Anti EU posters go on about trade deals (which we already had), vaccines (which we would have had anyway) and like to tell people to stop whinging, crying over spilt milk and, basically, suck it up.

I'm not quite sure what to say about that.

Bit late to cry over spilt milk now, it is a fact, live with it

Yammy

What is the point of having Gransnet if people are shot down for having their own opinions? A debate should be open to all and all opinions considered. Some people on here seem to think they own or rule it where is the democracy in that. There are some very nasty comments being banded around at the moment and one person even being made to feel she is not going to join in for a while.
Children's playground stuff we all need to air our comments without feeling inhibited or Gransnet is rendered useless.

Surely opinions should be based upon fact and have an element of truth. it is apparent from many of the posts on here that opinions are just that - "I believe that.... therefore it is true".

It seems to me that there's little point in having a debate if the pronouncements are not fact based.

Grannymyers1954

Well I must be in the minority but so glad we were out of the EU so we could be vaccinated so quickly unlike our friends living in the EU. Also I do not like to be bullied by unelected bureaucrats. Sorry folks but hope Scotland does leave UK and joins EU that will save money for England Northern Ireland and Wales.

Same old, same old. They were elected. MEPS were elected by each country. The MEPs voted for the higher echelons.