Queen Victoria and Queen Elizabeth statues toppled in Canada

Alegrias1

Chestnut

Grany, if you don't like this country then why not live somewhere else? Sometimes people don't realise how good they have it.

Totally uncalled for. What a horrible thing to write.

Surely true though. If you dislike a country so much you want to completely change it then why live there? And what about those who live there but don't want to change it? They probably wouldn't welcome your changes.

How does that work for Canadians who don’t want the queens statue? Should they also move? Make their own country? Oh wait…

Chestnut

Grany, if you don't like this country then why not live somewhere else? Sometimes people don't realise how good they have it.

Totally uncalled for. What a horrible thing to write.

Lin52 of course it’s all bad.

But this is about the First Nations Children of Canada.

Bringing in “well what about this” devalues what the group we are discussing went through.

Why can’t people focus on how badly these children were treated without comparing? It’s like you don’t want to focus on it

Exemptions from the law
In the 1960s government ministers sought to introduce laws that would make it illegal to refuse to employ an individual on the grounds of their race or ethnicity.

The Queen has remained personally exempted from those equality laws for more than four decades. The exemption has made it impossible for women or people from ethnic minorities working for her household to complain to the courts if they believe they have been discriminated against.

Much of the family’s history is inextricably linked with the British empire, which subjugated people around the world.

Summerlove

Chestnut

25Alvalon - yes the UK workhouses were equally terrible. Very young children were dragged from their beds at 6am, worked 12 hour days and beaten if they fell asleep. The 19th century was a terrible place for all children unless from wealthy families. The treatment of these indigenous children has to be placed in the context of the time, a time when all children were abused and ill-treated. It is only when we get into the 20th century that we have to ask why cruelty to children and young people was still happening.

Work houses and residential schools should not be compared. They were two separate things.

People being sent to “the colonies” is not the same thing as being sent to residential schools by colonists.

Forced adoption is not the same thing as Being torn away from your family at age 5 and taught to hate your history/culture/self up until the NINETIES.

This was government sponsored and the government contracted the churches to “handle it”.

These are SCHOOLS with both mass graves and unmarked graves. Schools. Where countless children were both murdered and committed suicide.

children.

Please do more research before continuing to stay upset about unrest and statues.

Very few people here on this post actually understand how deep this goes, and it shows.

This is not about left or right. It’s about murdered children. It’s about the government, and as such, yes the Queen. The Vatican has already basically stated they can’t apologize, because it leaves them open to lawsuits.

Think about that. Lawsuits are more important than dead children.

I would suggest that children being sent to the colonies, would be as bad in its own way, beaten, starved, sexually abused, deprived of their parents, taken away from their own cultures, some were sent to South Africa. Just because one set of people were treated worse than animals, doesn’t mean others weren’t. After all they were all children.

Grany, if you don't like this country then why not live somewhere else? Sometimes people don't realise how good they have it.

Change the debate about the monarchy with a huge billboard campaign up and down the country.

www.crowdfunder.co.uk/republic/comments#start

Statues are just symbolic. If people don’t want them in public spaces they shouldn’t be there. If all they are doing is destroying statues it doesn’t equate to anarchy.

I think the pulling down of statues is going to go on every where they have pulled one of Lenin down in the Ukraine.
The mass graves are awful.
People were so cruel and thought nothing of human life.
The Victorians had a lot to answer for too.

Summerlove - Chestnut, I struggle to understand your level of compassion because you are more concerned about statues than people.
Absolute nonsense. I asked a question regarding the violent behaviour, I have already explained I do not feel compassion for statues! I have spoken a lot about the abuse and cruelty, I can't keep repeating myself.

My answer to the question posed by the OP is no, it’s not the way to deal with it.

Toppling and destroying statues is vandalism and resolves nothing; it neither addresses nor rights the undoubted abuses that have happened in the past. With all the visual communication available grievances and concerns can be aired and discussed publicly without any need for violence.

For the record, the original article in the original post states that this ended in the 70s, it was 96. It also states that just under 1000 bodies have been found, it’s over 1500.

Chestnut, I struggle to understand your level of compassion because you are more concerned about statues than people.

Callistmon, The church was acting at the behest of the government. The Indian residential school system in Canada was a government initiative. The church has a lot to be blamed for, as do all of the other churches that were involved. But the buck stops at the government.

Further reading for anyone interested in what First Nations people in Canada deal with.

Lack of access to clean drinking water

Www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/30/canada-first-nations-justin-trudeau-drinking-water

Indifference to murdered women by police. Over 80 women missing or murdered in one area

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_Tears

Key issues facing indigenous peoples in Canada

www.ictinc.ca/blog/8-key-issues-for-indigenous-peoples-in-canada

UN states Canada is failing indigenous peoples

www.ubcic.bc.ca/canadafailingindigenouspeoples

Legacy of hope

legacyofhope.ca/wherearethechildren/

Survivor stories

www.macleans.ca/opinion/residential-schools-survivors-cindy-blackstock/amp/

indigenouspeoplesatlasofcanada.ca/article/redress-and-healing/

next150.indianhorse.ca/challenges/survivor-stories

Government response

www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/1450124405592/1529106060525

Chestnut

In most or many cases it is the Catholic church that commits this type of crime against humanity and they should be taking responsibility for all the dreadful things they've done.
I accept that many people probably mistakenly thought they were doing the native population good by 'civilising' them, but there was no excuse for cruelty or neglect. The Catholic church committed cruelty and neglect of children on an epic scale all over the world.

The policy of 'civilising' children was thought to be well meaning at the time although now we realise how very wrong this was.

The real criminal, the common denominator, in all these cases in Canada, America and Australia, was the Catholic church and they are the ones who should be held to account.
What was done to thousands of children was wicked, cruel and criminal.

Whatdayisit

Personally i think this thread should be taken down.
We are banging on about statues when all these children have been murdered abused and mistreated. Generations have been treated in an abhorrent way and you think it's the start of anarchy because statues are coming down. Ridiculous and offensive.

Whatdayisit I'm sorry you feel that way. The OP was a genuine question as to whether violence and law breaking is the way to deal with it.

Summerlove please explain why you would you think I have no compassion? I have said several times how appalling these atrocities were and how attempts should be made now to do some good and make some amends where possible. Many dreadful mistakes were made in the past, and a great deal of cruelty. My own father was a child migrant, so of course I have compassion.

Personally i think this thread should be taken down.
We are banging on about statues when all these children have been murdered abused and mistreated. Generations have been treated in an abhorrent way and you think it's the start of anarchy because statues are coming down. Ridiculous and offensive.

It makes me sad to know how cruel human beings can be to each other especially children. The atrocities that have taken place throughout history leave me chilled. Belonging to the human race is nothing to be proud of.
I can't condone the pulling down of statues as it achieves nothing but can understand the frustration people feel and need to vent.

Chestnut

25Alvalon - yes the UK workhouses were equally terrible. Very young children were dragged from their beds at 6am, worked 12 hour days and beaten if they fell asleep. The 19th century was a terrible place for all children unless from wealthy families. The treatment of these indigenous children has to be placed in the context of the time, a time when all children were abused and ill-treated. It is only when we get into the 20th century that we have to ask why cruelty to children and young people was still happening.

Work houses and residential schools should not be compared. They were two separate things.

People being sent to “the colonies” is not the same thing as being sent to residential schools by colonists.

Forced adoption is not the same thing as Being torn away from your family at age 5 and taught to hate your history/culture/self up until the NINETIES.

This was government sponsored and the government contracted the churches to “handle it”.

These are SCHOOLS with both mass graves and unmarked graves. Schools. Where countless children were both murdered and committed suicide.

children.

Please do more research before continuing to stay upset about unrest and statues.

Very few people here on this post actually understand how deep this goes, and it shows.

This is not about left or right. It’s about murdered children. It’s about the government, and as such, yes the Queen. The Vatican has already basically stated they can’t apologize, because it leaves them open to lawsuits.

Think about that. Lawsuits are more important than dead children.

Chestnut

Summerlove Toppling statues is hardly anarchy.
I've already said it represents anarchy (have you even read the posts?) not that it actually is anarchy. And don't forget anarchy has to start somewhere.

Yes I’ve read the posts.

Have you read the stories of the survivors of residential “schools”? If you have, and still have so little compassion, I urge you to read more.

25Avalon

This violence achieves nothing. It is all misdirected. The church responsible was the Roman Catholic Church. Similar things happened to Native Americans in the US - they didn’t have a monarch. Our workhouses here were pretty horrible too but they didn’t continue up to the 70’s. Something terribly wrong that this system existed for so long.

Criminal damage stirred up by left wing groups is not the answer. Part of the answer must be a thorough investigation of what happened such a relatively short time ago and presumably there may still be some living who can be brought to justice.

The workhouses didn’t continue until the 1970s, but the child migration scheme, founded by a womanAnnie MacPherson in 1869, where many children were sent abroad from the UK, was not entirely discontinued until the 1970s. Forced adoptions still going on until the late 1970s, state and sometimes family coercion. Every country has their own horror stories. Pulling down statues may assauage some anger, but investigations and inquiry to get to the bottom of these atrocities are what is really needed, as people need and deserve answers.

25Alvalon - yes the UK workhouses were equally terrible. Very young children were dragged from their beds at 6am, worked 12 hour days and beaten if they fell asleep. The 19th century was a terrible place for all children unless from wealthy families. The treatment of these indigenous children has to be placed in the context of the time, a time when all children were abused and ill-treated. It is only when we get into the 20th century that we have to ask why cruelty to children and young people was still happening.

Of course statues are just lumps of stone or metal and no-one cares about them as physical things. It's what the pulling down of them represents that is the issue, and going back to my OP, is that the way (i.e. public disorder) to deal with this? If people feel it is then there will be a lot more public disorder.
I think everyone is in agreement that the original crimes were terrible and should never have happened, that goes without saying. And that attempts should be made to undo some of the damage wherever possible.

This violence achieves nothing. It is all misdirected. The church responsible was the Roman Catholic Church. Similar things happened to Native Americans in the US - they didn’t have a monarch. Our workhouses here were pretty horrible too but they didn’t continue up to the 70’s. Something terribly wrong that this system existed for so long.

Criminal damage stirred up by left wing groups is not the answer. Part of the answer must be a thorough investigation of what happened such a relatively short time ago and presumably there may still be some living who can be brought to justice.