Animals don’t belong in the Olympics

Humans left Africa on foot.

Yes, and...?

How long would knowledge take to spread itself around very widely scattered groups using only shankses' pony?

I think if any creature had our brain filled with curiosity it would 'use' what ever it found in the environment.
Even ants control and milk greenfly as a food resource.
Many animals do something similar.
We are just better at it.

Namsnanny

MaizieD

On the other hand, why should we die out just because we suffer from self-hate?

I was just thinking, MOnica, that without the use of horses (and other animals*) for transport of people and goods there would have been very little mixing between groups of humans, no interchange of ideas, experiences and discoveries and so a much slower, if any at all, understanding of the world and the human condition and scientific discoveries and advances in knowledge. Perhaps we wouldn't have died out, but we could well be still in the Stone Age...

*Is there as much feeling about the similar exploitation of camels, elephants, donkeys, llamas etc. for the benefit of humans?

Humans left Africa on foot.

And then the intelligent ones found they could use other animals to make it easier for them around 3500BC. And people learned from one another how to look after horses, etc.

Why should one small group tell others that they cannot have this relationship with horses when it has been part of the evolution of both species?

MaizieD

^Humans left Africa on foot.^

Yes, and...?

How long would knowledge take to spread itself around very widely scattered groups using only shankses' pony?

Well, it worked that way for long enough.

Arable farming is an option that falls between being a gatherer and a hunter.

Well, if we were living in a world with much fewer people, where there was space for animals to roam freely, then I wouldn’t see anything wrong in hunting for food. That’s what the animal kingdom does. The food chain.

But then I start to think, is it really better for animals if they are hunted rather than farmed, leading safe, hunger free lives, diseases treated. Is it really better to be wild?

Anyway, it would take a pandemic to bring the world back to that ?

Anybody want to comment on the dilemma of pets for vegans? When does exploitation begin or end?

MoorlandMooner

Arable farming is an option that falls between being a gatherer and a hunter.

So how do you suggest progress was made in arable without horses? Are you going to rewrite history?

Hmm the trouble with arable farming is that you do need to fertilise the land. So it’s animals (sustainable) or chemicals ( not long term sustainable and damaging to the earth)

Peasblossom

Well, this is interesting.

I’m not an animal person really. I’ve never had a pet, never felt the need of one. But I do accept the reality of relationships that form between humans and animals.

I have often wondered about the dichotomy of being against animal exploitation and then having pets, which lots of animal lovers seem to do.

Not judging one way or the other. One of those issues where I really can see both sides.

I wonder what would happen if we left previously domesticated animals to go wild and feral?

One example I can think of is the camel in Australia where 20,000 were taken out by cameleers to use as transport then left and now approximately half a million populate the interior.

Sheep have been farmed for many thousands of years but those farmed for wool in particular would suffer if left to go feral.

There is cruelty and exploitation of animals by humans - for example, donkeys are often badly treated in some countries but using Olympic horses as an example of exploitation is a non-starter.

PippaZ Long before horses were used for farming, oxen were used to pull the plough, carts, guns and goods.

Pioneers going West in the US used them to pull their wagons as the Boers in South Africa. I believe some were used in WW1 to pull guns.

There is cruelty and exploitation of humans by humans. Treat humans well and generally animals are treated well as well.

Cruelty to animals in children is often seen as a marker for someone being violet and abusive to humans as well when older.

MaizieD as you seem to think I have zero knowledge of horses with little or no evidence, I would like to assure you I have quite a bit of knowledge of horses, have ridden many in the past, thank you. If you want chapter and verse I can give it to you
The discussion has evolved from the olympics. My thesis was that since the olympics is about human athleticism , maybe horses didn’t fit in. There aren’t any other non human events as far as I know. I didn’t express any opinion about horse trials, horse racing or other equine pursuits, I just said given the that it was. as much, if not more, about the horse than the rider it didn’t really fit in the modern olympics. Skateboarding, surfing etc , fine, dressage??..

M0nica

PippaZ Long before horses were used for farming, oxen were used to pull the plough, carts, guns and goods.

Pioneers going West in the US used them to pull their wagons as the Boers in South Africa. I believe some were used in WW1 to pull guns.

True and interesting. However you may have set off a "Save our Oxen" group

MaizieD as you seem to think I have zero knowledge of horses with little r no evidence, I would like to assure you I have quite a bit of knowledge of horses, have ridden many in the past, thank you

Fine. I was asking ages ago and you didn't respond. Now we know. Thank you

What are oxen used for these days? Hope its not just oxtail or ox cheeks. I wonder if you can drink ox milk?

Rosycheeks as oxen are usually castrated male cattle, the chances of getting ox milk is minimal. However the female cattle is called a cow and they provide us with most ot the dairy products we consume.

Yes they do OP

Given that the Olympics are supposed to be about human athleticism, I fail to see why events such as dressage and showjumping are allowed

Human athleticism Right…

Skateboarding, cycling, football, tennis, beach volleyball in teeny bikini bottoms, synchronised diving…..

You may not like it Aleg but there wouldn’t be any point to keeping horses in this country if nobody wished to ride them, we don’t eat horsemeat here, so it really would be a case of ‘what are horses for’.
We don’t have vast swathes of land for them to roam free (like the Eurasian plains) and few are needed for working purposes.
We ride them and train them because we feed and nurture them, and they get a good deal out of it.

Interesting factoid....oxen ( plural) and bretheren ( plural) are the only two examples now, as the ‘es’ ending for plurals which
Started with the Normans, took over.
Shoes used to be shoen etc.
I expect a poster will now be along with another example I hadn’t heard of.?

I think you miss my point Lemongrove.

Horses are not "for" anything, although they probably fill some evolutionary niche. They are certainly not "for" the use and entertainment of man, although over the years that is how we have availed ourselves of them.

Asking what any domesticated animal is "for" demonstrates a complete misunderstanding how nature works and humans' place in it.

BTW, Scottish dialect for shoes is sheen. I am that poster.

Ah, Scottish-isms don’t count.?
You have missed my point actually .... of course it wasn’t meant in any way but to refute the OP and others who seem to imagine that horses shouldn’t be used for any human activity such as riding, dressage, showjumping and so on.
If it wasn’t for such sports and activities they wouldn’t be needed or looked after.Nor would they be able to fend for themselves very well.

Like I said a couple of times, I know next to nothing about horses. But I'm a vegetarian, and I often get the question, well what would happen to all the cows if we didn't eat them then?
Answer: They wouldn't have existed in the first place.

So when I see "What's a horse for?" the answer is certainly not to entertain humans, or to work for them. If we didn't ride them, they wouldn't exist in the first place. I'm not advocating that, I'm just saying the question doesn't help explain things. I don't think I'm explaining this very well.

They exist as prey animals. Given that we don’t have wolves in this country any more I don’t know what their actual purpose is. What they have done, though, is to evolve into incredibly beautiful creatures that have worked their way into out hearts. I think the more they become removed from our everyday lives the more our love for them grows but it is in a rather sentimental and anthropomorphic way. And I’m as guilty of that as anyone. I just love everything about them I only recently found out that sheep were introduced to this country: I always assumed they’d been here forever.