To want to weep fir the girls in afghanistaan

I do wonder how much this is down to Trump.

He negotiated just with the Taliban in 2020. They have had all that time to plan get out their advance force and bribe the Afghan army.

If Trump had simply negotiated with the government, there may well have been a different outcome.

They are both equally guilty.
I have no words for either so called leader of the free world.

Whitewavemark2

Don’t forget that the running down of allied troops has been happening over a number of years not suddenly as people seem to think.

The big problem was that Trump (the idiot) did not involve the Afghan government in the withdrawal agreement. Do idea why, but then I doubt that he has either.

We had been training Afghan troops for 7 years after combat troops had been withdrawn in 2014.

I agree, they're both as guilty, but had this been solely Trump, I have a feeling that the condemnation would have been loud and clear including demonstrations both in Washington, London and probably elsewhere, but as this awful calamity includes Biden I guess that makes any demonstrations a bit awkward to say the least. Hypocrisy seems alive and well! No surprise there I suppose

Jabberwok

I agree, they're both as guilty, but had this been solely Trump, I have a feeling that the condemnation would have been loud and clear including demonstrations both in Washington, London and probably elsewhere, but as this awful calamity includes Biden I guess that makes any demonstrations a bit awkward to say the least. Hypocrisy seems alive and well! No surprise there I suppose

Whilst Trump made a daft decision in only including the Taliban in the withdrawal agreement, the reason for the allies being in Afghanistan was long gone.

The USA does not act like an empire as we did in the past century, it certainly does act aggressively if it considers its interests are being challenged.

Biden inherited a pigs ear of a withdrawal agreement, and I am sure that he would not have done the same as Trump.

Nevertheless he asked himself the question - given that the allies all recognised that the initial reason was completed - “if not now, when”?

Gradual withdrawal had been taking place over many years, this is simply the wrap up.

I think that the lesson that has been learned is that liberal democracy does not transplant in every country in the world.

I think that is true Whitewavemark2 - the question is do we just let them get on with it, as long as their behaviour does not directly impinge on us (oil? - terrorist atrocities in the west?)?

We cannot pretend it is not happening - news media will not allow for that - we all know what is going on.

Trying to impose our idea of democracy on other countries has a history of being a disaster and it is tempting to say we should just ignore them all - but we live in a small world now with communications and travel being so efficient, and international inter-dependency is a fact of life.

On a humanitarian level, the sight and knowledge of fellow human beings being terrorised in their own homes is intolerable.

This was a puppet government propped up by the west.

It was bound to fail.

Yes indeed it was inevitably. I honestly think we're just going to have to leave the Afghans to sort it out for themselves, I just don't see what else we can do? The involvement of China is a worry,but again why aren't we surprised! Again realistically , it's nothing we can do about as China who, if not now, regardless of politics, will eventually have Europeans by the throat. A bleak picture indeed.

I read the Taliban are now in Kabul, the last city to take. I would agree about leaving them to sort it out for themselves if it were not for the dreadful atrocities perpetrated on women and children.
I wonder when Russia will get involved in this.

Whilst Trump made a daft decision in only including the Taliban in the withdrawal agreement, the reason for the allies being in Afghanistan was long gone.

I'm afraid my knowledge of this is not great. I understood the "the reason for the allies being in Afghanistan" was as a protection for our own countries from Isis and Al Khidr. Is that long gone? As I understood it Isis may not want to influence anything other than in their own country. Al Khidr, on the other hand, still wants to export its beliefs.

I also understand that the Taliban are also seen as waging a proxy war on behalf of Pakistan.

Have I got this completely wrong?

Jabberwok

Had Trump still been President, the condemnation from all and sundry would have been deafening, but because Biden is in the hot seat, there is barely a murmur. How strange is that!

I have been murmuring Jabberwock and so have you so two of us at least.
Tbh I think that people who initially welcomed Biden as President ( UK) are rather shocked and disappointed by this mad scramble to safety that he has overseen, whilst cravenly handing over all power to the Taliban.

Once Osama bin Laden was killed and al-Qaida gone, America had no further reason to remain in Afghanistan.

Obama almost immediately withdrew thousands of troops, but kept continual presence to try to strengthen the government and train the army.

This has been taking place over at least 10 years and has cost the USA and allies trillions of pounds.

It hasn’t worked. Biden had to make a decision as a result of Trumps agreement.

Ask yourself what else should he have done.

Bear in mind that the allies were never there for altruistic reasons only self interest, that hasn’t changed.

However much we don’t like what is happening, it is naive to think that the allies would remain until……….when? Ever?

So the well equipped and trained Afgan army decided not to put up a fight! How many of these men would be quite happy to see the women in their families returned to their traditional place in the family under their command. We see it in this county in the Pakistani communities where young girls are tricked to returning to Pakistan only to be married of to a close relative then expected to obey the mother-in- law. I believe marital rights were claimed by husbands in this country up till 1990's when the offence of rape within marriage became law. I have no doubt many men would like a subservient wife.

Don’t forget that there was never a credible exit strategy.

Biden voted to go into Afghanistan in 2002 or maybe 2001? But he was consistently critical of the USA strategy once it had gone into Afghanistan.

From what I’ve read, the Taliban agreed that they’d prevent anything like Al Qaeda or IS from using Afghanistan as a base, which would fulfil the requirements of the West. Because of that, it seems that the US now regards what’s happening in the country as a civil war in which America plays no part.

I think whatever action the US takes, they’d been damned if they did, dammed if they didn’t.

Parliament is being recalled on Wednesday.(Sky News )

As i posted earlier but now in relation to an exit strategy - the man responsible for going in to Afghan did not agree with Trump's decision or Biden's upholding it. So we can still ask why and still be angry at these two men.

I think the issue is the way the allies have exited, and seemed badly planned. We have in effect handed Afghanistan over to the Taliban, but I think the Biden certainly appeared to have misjudged the situation when talking about it a few weeks ago.

Then Biden is an idiot.

Just watching Johnson on Sky News. I don’t know what to say that’s repeatable….

MayBee70

Just watching Johnson on Sky News. I don’t know what to say that’s repeatable….

I’m the same.

But honestly, Johnson was only reiterating what took us into there in the first place.
Raab made a sad little statement.

You could never accuse this government of outstanding rhetoric.

U.K. interests first and last.

Interesting to hear what parliament thinks on Wednesday.

Whitewavemark2

But honestly, Johnson was only reiterating what took us into there in the first place.
Raab made a sad little statement.

You could never accuse this government of outstanding rhetoric.

U.K. interests first and last.

Interesting to hear what parliament thinks on Wednesday.

As you said in an earlier post how long could the West, meaning US stay there. We pulled out all combat troops in 2014. www.iwm.org.uk/history/what-was-the-british-role-in-afghanistan?back=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fclient%3Dsafari%26as_qdr%3Dall%26as_occt%3Dany%26safe%3Dactive%26as_q%3DWhen+did+the+UK+first+go+into+Afghanistan+when+did+the+United+Kingdom+first+go+into+Afghanistan%26channel%3Daplab%26source%3Da-app1%26hl%3Den

@Whitewavemark2. I don’t think this is entirely down to Trump. Biden could have postponed the withdrawal and looked again at the situation. I know it’s early days for Biden at the moment, but he doesn’t appear to be interested in anything that doesn’t affect the US. What’s happening now will have repercussions which are much more wide ranging, and it’ll come back to bite us eventually.