The Rage of the Incels

Maggiemaybe I am not sure the men who commit these crimes have thought about publicity. Most such attacks end with suicide, so the perpetrator, won't see any of it anyway.

I think there only motive is to get even with those that they see as causing their problems and society in general that permitted their perceived wrongs and they get a visceral pleasure from seeing the people they gun down fall and die.

While I understand Jacinda Ardern's view, I am very uneasy about it, because it means that you are censoring news, names are not published, nothing said, and that can be the start of a slippery slope of gradually thinking of other persons/crimes/events that are better not reported until no news is heavily censored news.

Alegrias1

AGAA4

Collateral damage more than targets. The word Terrorist will always have an impact however often it is used Alegrias.

He went outside his mother's house, wondered the streets for about 10 minutes and shot everyone he saw. That's not collateral damage.

The OPs question was about incel groups and I was discussing that and not the case in Plymouth as we don't know enough about it.
That may or may not have been a result of him being involved with other incels.

Also he didn't shoot everyone he saw.

Totally agree with Lemongrove how on earth did this idiot get that Gun Licence back. Who and why gave it back to him and for what reason?
Above all why do you need a shotgun in Plymouth?
So sad.

I’ve been aware of incel groups since a case in Canada a few years ago. They’re sinister and to my mind are terrorists. Whether that applies to this particular case, I don’t know. He certainly seemed to be full of bile towards his mother.

Maggiemaybe

I agree with your no doubt unpopular view, Alegrias1. Until we know more about the case, all this speculation is pointless.

I can't see the issue in understanding what we are dealing with Maggiemaybe

Incels share a belief that they are victims of “lookism.” Lookism means that attractive people receive advantages, while unattractive people are the targets of prejudice. These arguments are not without merit, as psychological and sociological research demonstrates attractiveness has benefits such as higher income.

Incels think women are to blame for lookism and its consequences. They argue that women only pursue the most attractive men, which they call “hypergamy.” For incels, hypergamy means that women will always “trade” their partner for a more attractive man.

theconversation.com/incels-are-surprisingly-diverse-but-united-by-hate-163414

The reason incels aren't classed as terrorists is because of the colour of their skin. If they were brown or Muslim, the authorities would be after them in spades.

This has been reported on several times over the last few years. School shooters (as they were collectively called before the term incel became widely used) are invariably Caucasian men or boys.

Anyone heard of the novel 'We need to talk about Kevin.'? (2003) Also made into a movie.

As I understand it, in order for an act to be classed as a terrorist act, it has to be hoping that the act will change Government policy, so for example Islamic terrorists are hoping for Sharia law to be introduced, the IRA were hoping to achieve a United Ireland.
The man in Plymouth was not working towards that sort of aim, so cannot be classed as a terrorist.

The reason incels aren't classed as terrorists is because of the colour of their skin. If they were brown or Muslim, the authorities would be after them in spades.

Not true and inflammatory.

What about the man in New Zealand? The Irish terrorists when we were young? What if you are a brown person who is also an incel? What a ridiculous thing to say.

Elliot Rodger, an incel from California was mixed race. His father was British and mother was Malaysian. He killed 6 people.

It's not only whites who are incels

PippaZ

Maggiemaybe

I agree with your no doubt unpopular view, Alegrias1. Until we know more about the case, all this speculation is pointless.

I can't see the issue in understanding what we are dealing with Maggiemaybe

Incels share a belief that they are victims of “lookism.” Lookism means that attractive people receive advantages, while unattractive people are the targets of prejudice. These arguments are not without merit, as psychological and sociological research demonstrates attractiveness has benefits such as higher income.

Incels think women are to blame for lookism and its consequences. They argue that women only pursue the most attractive men, which they call “hypergamy.” For incels, hypergamy means that women will always “trade” their partner for a more attractive man.

theconversation.com/incels-are-surprisingly-diverse-but-united-by-hate-163414

The perpetrator in this case specifically said in one of his YouTube rants that he did not identify as an incel. So your understanding of what we are dealing with is incorrect.

Alegrias1, the skin colour of incels has been written about repeatedly. I'll put some links up later. Busy at the mo.

Ilovecheese

As I understand it, in order for an act to be classed as a terrorist act, it has to be hoping that the act will change Government policy, so for example Islamic terrorists are hoping for Sharia law to be introduced, the IRA were hoping to achieve a United Ireland.
The man in Plymouth was not working towards that sort of aim, so cannot be classed as a terrorist.

This tweet from an experienced lawyer makes it clear that it was terrorism. I would suggest the reason why there is no concerted action against such men is because their target is women.

Do you not think that these "incels" are quite a lot like the Taliban.?

Obsessed by sex (lack of) the Taliban kidnap women and girls to be raped or forced into marriage, presumably because no woman would willingly have sex with these pathetic inadequate men.

Look at the post above you Gagajo... And the one from ZoeJory. And the one from Ilovecheese

The colour of their skin is nothing to do with why incels are not classed as terrorists. To say its just because they are not brown or Muslim is pandering to a racist point of view.

Jumping to conclusions is not a good approach to such a serious event.

varian

Do you not think that these "incels" are quite a lot like the Taliban.?

Obsessed by sex (lack of) the Taliban kidnap women and girls to be raped or forced into marriage, presumably because no woman would willingly have sex with these pathetic inadequate men.

F*** no!

Some perspective, please!

Alegrias, this has been in the media for upwards of 20 years. It's been taught in universities. Skin colour is a factor.

I'm off. This is madness.

Isn't it just? I think I've seen enough as well.

There's an interesting article in the Guardian today though discussing the reasons why the killings should, or should not, be treated as a terrorist incident. Skin colour is not one of them.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/13/should-the-plymouth-shootings-be-declared-an-act-of-terror

The salient point for me is this one sentence: It is not clear that Davison killed in the name of incel ideology or if it was a domestic incident that escalated, or both.

There is also an excellent Guardian article, from probably 3 or 4 years ago, that I haven't been able to find.

These incidents were previously clumped under the heading of 'school shooters' although many of them weren't on school premises. Many of those involved held grudges against their mothers or women in general. Colombine was a really infamous one, and is referenced in the novel I mentioned up thread. And of course, Dunblane and it's links with Andy Murray, who has struggled to cope with the trauma.

www.vice.com/en/article/a35mya/nearly-all-mass-shooters-since-1966-have-had-four-things-in-common

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/19/american-mass-shootings-terrorism-racism

news.sky.com/story/why-are-white-men-more-likely-to-carry-out-mass-shootings-11252808

www.facebook.com/TheView/posts/most-mass-shooters-were-white-malesalthough-white-individuals-made-up-692-of-arr/10207822735265480/

Several right wing organisations have been banned and their members are treated as terrorists. There are very few foreign people of any skin hue other than white among them and quite a number have been sent to prison for terrorist attempts.

What I have noticed, and as this is purely anecdotal evidence, it may not be accurate, that quite a number of those imprisoned for right wing terrorism, were freelancers, not part of s comspiracy, and thay a number of them have been described as autistic.

I think there's something deeper going on. Some sort of personality disorder maybe. They then find others with the same problems online and are reassuring themselves that it's OK to have those views. This is one of the ways in which the Internet is bad for society. The problem here seems to be that he had a licensed firearm. I do 't know what the answer to the problem is, I wish I did but labelling it all' mental health' problems is just too easy.

I think if you want to find out about incels, Reddit is the place to go
r/tearsofincels

I'm not referring to any posts here in the last line of my above post.

I have had some experience with those on the autistic spectrum and the process by which this is diagnosed and lack of help thereafter (for relatives or the person themselves), it seems imo that the system labels people with AS as an easy explanation for problematic behaviours as well as those with classic definitions. This leaves some people without treatment that could make a big difference to their lives. There are also Co morbid conditions which very often are only diagnosed after age 18 and frequently never. I have witnessed this in a family member. I am convinced that he is asocial and possibly npd but I'm not a psychiatrist, just worked in this field. After 18 diagnosis is only if they find it a problem or if they are a threat to society like this man was. Sadly the autistic 'spectrum' has become a dumping ground for all sorts of children with behavioural problems (can be various causes) as has adhd. I have seen parents and grand parents fight to get there child diagnosed with this despite there being obvious parenting problems causing the issues. It's easier to say 'he's adhd or AS' than it is to admit they might have made mistakes or struggled to parent efficiently. Some children and their backgrounds are difficult.

Rant over. I think there's a connection to this type of tragic story and the misdiagnosing of personality disorders.

Yes GagaJo, I read that novel when it came out. I didn't think the film had the same power though.