The Rage of the Incels

@Dinahmo with regard to what you quote "In fact, it is rare for a woman to be murdered by a current or former partner without a previous history of domestic abuse" Jane Moncton Smith has studied this and worked out that there is always a pattern, they follow a similar timeline, there is no completely out of the blue, just snapping
Her book is In Control: Dangerous Relationships and How They End in Murder
www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/cheltenham-news/domestic-abuse-jane-monckton-smith-3288883 has the timeline , worth looking at
None of these seemingly out of the blue murders are out of the blue, there is always a build up to it
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49481998

Growstuff, ime there will be an investigation and they will highlight the problems, say 'lessons will be learnt' and everything will carry on as it always has

M0nica

Not only did he have it legally, but his licence was withdrawn_temporally _ after an incident, he did an anger management course - and the licence was restored!

That is really alarming. The system ,if it can be called that, is clearly not working.

joining the army cadets is not the same as ccf, which is a school based activity.
army cadets meet in territorials halls, in the evenings, a bit like scouts, and for weekend activities.

JaneJudge

I don't know if any of you have experience of the level of behavioural need, to attend an EBD school in the first place. I can only think after school he received no further 'help' even if he was entitled. Education is scant after 18 for people with complex needs and disabilities and despite claims they can access education until 25 it is rarely the case. Add in resistance and a Mum who may not have been in control or able to cope (no judgement, it's bloody hard) It is SO difficult to get the help and support these people need.

I think these groups - incels etc prey on people who have other issues too. It is in part a manipulation.

Yes. I have had some limited experience of working in a school with EBD children. It's a struggle to get places and the bar is set very high. Places are expensive and local authorities are reluctant to fund them, unless they really have to.

Therefore, it does see unbelievable that he was able to obtain a gun licence, but unfortunately I can believe it.

There should have been a package in place up to the age of 25. However, I witnessed for myself how inefficient the system is. Communication between all the agencies involved is problematic and they're all underfunded, so don't have the staff with the time for individual cases. There's too much rubber stamping unless there are obvious problems. It's all very well with hindsight to say that issues should have been obvious, but not of nobody was looking for them.

I wonder if the man's GP had been informed of his mental state. It could be that he wasn't and if the man hadn't been ill over the last couple of years, it's likely that he hadn't had a GP visit and nobody had actually looked at his record, which might not have been complete/accurate anyway. Whichever police officer signed off the renewed licence might not have had the correct information either. I'm sure it will all be investigated, although I have no doubt there will be defensive cover ups.

I'm afraid this won't be the first (and probably not the last) time that tragedies have been caused because systems have failed and maybe a simple mistake has been made, rather than corruption or downright negligence. It would be nice to think that lessons will be learnt, but somehow I doubt it.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

The problem with guns is not the guns themselves, but those who own them. Over the years many hundreds of thousands of people have owned guns for nearly their whole lifetime, completely blamelessly.

A small number, and it is a very small number, have misused them. Almost all of them have showed signs of mental instability or anger management problems
well beforehand

What needs to be tightened up considerably is the checks done on people before they get a gun licence and while they have it. For example, it should be noted on the medical records of every gun owner that they have a gun licence and it should be mandatory that the licencing authority be informed if there is any development in their health that could lead to misuse. I am not a medical expert, but I am sure medical experts could draw up a suitable list of problems calling for investigation.

Any gun licence holder reported for domestic abuse or for any criminal offence involving violence should immediately have their licence withdrawn, as they clearly have anger management issues.

I cannot see no problem with this, when DH developed sleep apnoea and had a microsleep when driving, he went straight to the doctor, who officially banned him from driving on the spot. Luckily I went to the appointment with him, I do not usually, so could drive home. If we can do this for sleep apnoea, we can surely do medically monitor gun owners.

Places like GCHQ regularly monitor all potential violent and terrorist sites. It should not be beyond the powers of electronics to link these with the gun registers, which should be held centrally, so anyone frequenting them or expressing violent or hate views, who holds a gun licence can be flagged up.

Thank goodness we do not live in the USA.

We do not have a "gun culture", but we need to tighten up the gun control we have.

It may be necessary to allow farmers and gamekeepers to have gun licences. Even so they should be monitored. Many farmers have committed suicide by shooting themselves and some have fired shots at others.

Gun clubs should have strict rules and responsibilities. Why should their members even be allowed to own guns? Why not just license the gun clubs to keep and control so many guns on their premises and let members practice shooting there but nowhere else?

JaneJudge

I don't know if any of you have experience of the level of behavioural need, to attend an EBD school in the first place. I can only think after school he received no further 'help' even if he was entitled. Education is scant after 18 for people with complex needs and disabilities and despite claims they can access education until 25 it is rarely the case. Add in resistance and a Mum who may not have been in control or able to cope (no judgement, it's bloody hard) It is SO difficult to get the help and support these people need.

I think these groups - incels etc prey on people who have other issues too. It is in part a manipulation.

Yes, good post JaneJudge

However hard staff may work with these pupils, if there is no follow-up after school-leaving age then all the good work may have been for nothing in some cases.

I just cant imagine many teachers talking with such confidence about EHCP s for a start

The only people who have any confidence in them are the local authority departments poised to reduce education, care and support packages.

I took that article with a pinch of salt to be honest. I thought there might have been some interpretation of the teachers words. I just cant imagine many teachers talking with such confidence about EHCP s for a start.

M0nica

The teacher may have been trying to deflect his interest in guns by moving his interest on to a wider military interest, plus the many useful and taxing activities organised by cadet forces - and the principles of self-discipline they try to instill.

I thought that might be the case too MOnica

I don't know if any of you have experience of the level of behavioural need, to attend an EBD school in the first place. I can only think after school he received no further 'help' even if he was entitled. Education is scant after 18 for people with complex needs and disabilities and despite claims they can access education until 25 it is rarely the case. Add in resistance and a Mum who may not have been in control or able to cope (no judgement, it's bloody hard) It is SO difficult to get the help and support these people need.

I think these groups - incels etc prey on people who have other issues too. It is in part a manipulation.

The teacher may have been trying to deflect his interest in guns by moving his interest on to a wider military interest, plus the many useful and taxing activities organised by cadet forces - and the principles of self-discipline they try to instill.

Maggiemaybe

Interesting article, MerylStreep. I see the angry teacher is the person who arranged for the killer to join the Army Cadets, as an outlet for his gun obsession. From the Army Cadets site:

Becoming an Army Cadet has heaps of benefits. The most obvious being that you get to take part in loads of exciting and challenging activities such as fieldcraft, adventure training, first aid, music, sports and shooting, to name but a few.

I wonder how he himself, knowing Jake so well, decided that he should be encouraged to have access to guns?

thats an interesting one maggiemaybe

im not sure that ccf training is all about guns
in fact school children do not use them unless highly supervised
many schools in the south west do ccf and the local army and royal marines work as partners with the educactional establishment

our sons and even our dippy 15 year old daughter did this on dartmoor but there was no encouragement to have guns
the aim was to develop personal responsibility and self discipline which obviously didnt work where this young man was concerned

Not only did he have it legally, but his licence was withdrawn_temporally _ after an incident, he did an anger management course - and the licence was restored!

nanna8

I’m wondering if he actually had a gun license or whether he got hold of the gun illegally? Possibly quite easy to do,it seems to be here anyway.

Yes, it appears he did hold the gun legally.

I’m wondering if he actually had a gun license or whether he got hold of the gun illegally? Possibly quite easy to do,it seems to be here anyway.

When female MPs complained about abusive language, Johnson called the complaints "humbug".

GillT57

I agree PamCuthbert, yet when women MPs have brought this type of behaviour to the attention of their fellow MPs, reported vile messages and threats they have received, the response has been pathetic from their fellow male MPs, dismissive, or at best, patronising.

I second you on this GillT57. Female MPs were mocked and undermined in the House of Commons itself and told to "calm down". If this kind of thing becomes normalised, it legitimises the extreme thinking.

Interesting article, MerylStreep. I see the angry teacher is the person who arranged for the killer to join the Army Cadets, as an outlet for his gun obsession. From the Army Cadets site:

Becoming an Army Cadet has heaps of benefits. The most obvious being that you get to take part in loads of exciting and challenging activities such as fieldcraft, adventure training, first aid, music, sports and shooting, to name but a few.

I wonder how he himself, knowing Jake so well, decided that he should be encouraged to have access to guns?

Thanks for the link, MerylStreep which reports that his teacher at Mount Tamar School, which caters for pupils with varying needs said Davison had a diagnosis of autism, an obsession with guns and said
How is it possible that a police officer read Jake’s history of obsessive compulsive disorder, anger issues and depression and concluded he should be allowed to own a firearm?

The article from the gunman’s teacher.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9894151/Plymouth-killers-school-teacher-disbelief-questions-mount-handed-shotgun.html

I agree PamCuthbert, yet when women MPs have brought this type of behaviour to the attention of their fellow MPs, reported vile messages and threats they have received, the response has been pathetic from their fellow male MPs, dismissive, or at best, patronising.

It's certainly frightening to me that there seem to be so many women haters in the world.
While we are comparatively free in the west, to live our lives, even here we are treated as second class citizens - we don't get equal pay despite legislation long ago, many of us are regularly subjected to verbal & physical abuse, & the punishment is often pitifully light.
There should be more attention paid to these women hating groups posts on social media.
Too many women are hurt or killed by men on a daily basis - when will it stop?