Biological men in woman only spaces

inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787
I know she won't matter of course because she works for Stonewall.
Personally I think any restrictions on anyone's appearance is wrong and the sort of fear mongering being promoted by threads like this is really far more frightening than any trans rights legislation.

The incident we are talking about is a convicted sex offender exposing himself in front of a child. But yes we should definitely take the piss out of people for that.

Because I'm rarely on here MG. It's like groundhog day.

Well done GJ. You waited til 27 posts before you made a non-comment.

Here we go again.

More moral panic based on almost nothing. I'm amazed some people are brave enough to leave the house these days.

There are far more negative consequences for all women than there are for butch lesbians, purely on the basis of numbers, and it is not reasonable to expect all women to stay silent because of that.

If it is the case that butch lesbians are also suffering as a result of this aspect of self id (and lesbians in general suffer when TRAs insist that any refusal to have sex with them amounts to transphobia) then they are yet another reason why the whole issue needs to be discussed and debated without women being shut down (and shut up).

21 posts in.
Trisher, why are you bringing butch lesbians into this?
Where has it been reported?
Why would anyone know they were lesbian, butch or otherwise?
If it’s true then it’s an issue that needs dealing with but once again trans rights are being dragged in by you, with an additional derailment.
Self ID may have been intended for the reason you give, but it has been used by people with a different purpose and is contributing to the erosion of women’s rights and this has been made worse by people refusing to see that this is a problem.

Of course it isn't a seperate issue. If you keep insisting there are tons of men around dressing as women to access women's spaces you raise ideas in women's heads. They start to look more closely at the people in that space and the people they criticise and scrutinise are those women who veer more towards masculine looks- the butch lesbian. By all means have views about this but don't pretend that there aren't any negative consequences for some women.

I care. But I see that as a different issue. Conflating it with trans rights isn’t helpful.

By the way self ID has never meant for trans people just the chance to decide you are a different gender. They just want a simpler legal process which isn't as expensive and doesn't require a medical diagnosis. It would still need some legal input and a GRC.

It has been reported recently that butch lesbians are experiencing criticism and negative remarks when they use women's loos. Nothing to do with anti-trans publicity or things like the OP of course. Which I very much doubt ever happened. Still who cares if women who don't conform with the accepted norms of femininity have problems.

To add to the post from Rosie51 about the spa in California.
First we were told that there never had been a man in the spa, that the women who complained had made it up.
Then we were told that it was a transwoman in the spa, so her penis, was not intended to intimidate, and that the children who noticed it were being rude.

But it fact the man was just a common or garden flasher, with previous form, who saw an opportunity to intimidate women and girls because he wanted to.

This is bound to happen here if self id is introduced with no qualifiers. Instead of pretending that this will not happen, isn't it better to try and work out a way to cope. The law as it stands here in the UK could have given the staff at the spa in America a reason to eject the man, but with self ID they felt unable to do that because he claimed to be a woman.,

Mollygo

BlueRuby you have re-opened a can of worms that’s already been well discussed. I’m surprised it’s got as far as 4 answers before you are bombarded with trans rights comments. I’ll watch and wait.

It might have been well-discussed on here and elsewhere but it is an ongoing problem.

Doodledog has expressed it all well (again) but it needs to be reiterated.
Women's rights are being eroded.

lemongrove They have just lost my vote.

i saw part of that ?mixed martial arts contest, it was hard to watch.
and what kind of a person who was formerly a male soldier and MMA fighter, would want to get into a ring with a born female and fight her so ferociously.
it was dangerous.

varian are you seriously referring us to Mermaids for unbiased reporting? That's like referring us the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre for a completely unbiased opinion on whether a man with a penis, who wears a frock, should be housed with vulnerable battered women.

Being female is more than a feeling.

Well varian California has the self ID law, did you miss everything about the traditional Korean WiSpa? A "transwoman" went into the obligatory naked women's section and sat on the spa side with a partially erect penis inches away from naked women and girls. It has since been discovered this is a convicted sex offender. This was not the first time this man had done so. Still what's the mantra.......no debate, be kind, it never happens.

vegansrock

You are right but the trans lobby has a louder voice than women’s voices.

They are certainly loud and demanding but I'm sure they are still a small minority.

After all the years of seeing women fight for equality and their rights, to see them having to compete against a masculine build trans 'woman' in sport is very saddening. I'm thinking of an article I read recently about a women's boxing match between a woman and a trans woman. The woman was almost killed by being choked in the fight. She didn't have the equal strength.

I think there Is a problem with allowing what are biologically men into women's spaces and especially as the OP said, those who have self identified.

To me it makes the fight for womens rights pointless. Also, I refuse to be referred to as 'Cis'. Its a name they made up to further their own agenda.

It's time people spoke out against this and women should drown out that small minority.

Yes because Mermaids are well known for their accurate reporting. The utter sexism and stereotypes that have been used by their founder alone is enough to raise concerns. There are numerous reports of incidents in other countries, have you seen the recent case in Anerica which is causing them to look again at their prison policy. Please stop telling women that these things arent happening, it's not kind.

Why don't we just look at the evidence and see whether other countries have experienced any problems as a result of enacting this legislation?

mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/safety-and-dignity/

Excellent post Doodledog. I agree with everything you’ve said.

Perhaps now is the time to add ‘ spaces ‘ ‘ toilets etc for those who identify as ‘non specific’ or the undecided.
Unfortunately public toilets rarely feel safe , especially at night or in less busy places.

Doodledog @ 13.46, you're absolutely right. No winterwhite, the quest to eradicate natal women appears to be cross party, particularly in Scotland but slowly and surely moving South.

The irony of the Lib Dems statement on Radio 4 earlier today coincides with a statement issued by Priti Patel today: Tackling violence against women and girls should be as much of a priority as countering terrorism, a police watchdog has said. A report was commissioned by Home Secretary Priti Patel after the murder of Sarah Everard earlier this year.
According to official statistics, in the year ending March 2020 there were:
An estimated 1.6 million female victims of domestic abuse in England and Wales
618,000 female victims of sexual assault
892,000 female victims of stalking

Who thinks that removing the few remaining "safe spaces for women" will reduce these statistics?

I don’t know Winter but I think there are discussions and divisions about it.
The Lib Dems are actively embracing the change though!

So are the Government and Tory run councils supporting women's safe spaces? I must have missed something.