Look at Me

I refuse to live in fear in my own community!

Gabriella56surely patriarchal society not misogynistic . As for your incomprehensible attack about what I reported _ well the decade the police chief visited the university I was studying in was the eighties? Does that make a lot of difference? I did not say i approved in any way his declaration that the ranks were uneducated, I was shocked at that complacent class based acceptance. He was there to recruit officers to the force. It made me think of the army and their class-based system of officers and other ranks. And it shows no respect. And sexist and racists beliefs aren’t because of lack of education but of ignorance which is shared across all classes but should be weeded out in the police force at a very fundamental level.

lemongrove

Am sure it’s worked for many women and girls Galaxy
Not crossing parks on their own after dark, avoiding walking in lonely places ( with or without a dog) not tottering about the streets half drunk on their own, not leaving windows wide open or doors unlocked and unbolted at night etc.All totally sensible precautions.We will never know how many rapes and deaths were prevented by these things and as I commented earlier a woman can still be unlucky if meeting a monster when doing something not at all risky( like poor Sarah) although that was a very unusual case.

But women shouldn’t have to take all these precautions.

It’s never a woman’s fault, no matter what they are wearing or what they drank.

All your advice does, is blame victims

We shouldn't have to lock up our jewellery or our money either, but as well as trying to make sure that our children are brought up not to appropriate whatever catches their eye, like magpies, or to deprive someone of hard-earned cash out of greed, we also put our valuables away out of sight or lodge them in the bank.
If we could be certain that predators won't (to use a Victorian term) "steal our honour" or beat us up or murder us, we could relax about keeping alert for danger, just as we could leave our diamond necklaces (if only!) on the windowsill, with the window open to a bus street.

That "bus street" was meant to be a busy one.

Crikey comparing womens bodies to a necklace, I struggle to leave my vagina at home when out and about.

Someone said that we were blissfully unaware of male harassment and violence against women when we were young. Maybe in a tiny close-nit village. I grew up in Manchester and at the age of 12, I already accepted that men shouting disgusting comments to me from building sites and cars was normal and men touching girls up without consent was ‘just the way men and boys were’. At 14, I was dragged onto a building site by an older friend’s boyfriend who tried to rape me. My screaming and fighting eventually led to him backing off. He said “I thought you’d be up for it”. I had done nothing to indicate that. This was in the 70s!

I’m not sure how my dd is supposed to avoid walking late at night in a dark place when she finishes her night shift in A&E at 1:30am. She has to walk to her car and then park it at other end and walk to her house. She’s tiny, too, wouldn’t be able to fight off anyone determined on harm. Come to that, nor could a friend who is blind or my niece with MS fight for their lives.

The bottom line is that men need to stop murdering women.

There are many factors to blame for the murder of Sarah Everard. The sexist attitudes of the police and the way they trivialise sex crimes, but we need to address the parents of sons. I am sick of hearing warnings to parents of daughters to "protect your daughters". What about parents of sons being told to "educate your sons". Sexist and lewd conduct is accepted by parents of sons because it's just "boys sowing their wild oats" or "boys will be boys". Men are brought up to believe they are victims of their biological make up, and that they sometimes cannot control their behaviour. Who do I blame for this? Their parents. I think the parents of Wayne Couzens should examine their conscience, because they are responsible for what has happened.

Just a tip for when anyone is walking alone, particularly at night. If you can, walk so that you are facing oncoming traffic. That way, no one can kerb crawl alongside you.

When I was in my forties I often had to walk through a dangerous city centre alone in the middle of the night.

I wore an anorak with the hood up. I don't know why but it made me feel safer.

Sometimes I would see a lone male approaching me and I developed a trick - as they got nearer I would look up and appear to greet someone behind him, although no-one was there.

I don't know whether this trick might just once have deterred a would be attacker or whether I was just lucky.

I think most women who have escaped attack think "There, but for the Grace of God"

I just wonder what we are now meant to do if ever stopped by a policeman. I've read this morning what senior police say we should ask/say/do and quite frankly it's rubbish. If any young man or woman starts questioning a policeman saying where are you from, why have you stopped me, what category of stop is this etc and then telling them they are recording everything and sending it directly to the icloud so that it can't be deleted, well I can only imagine what the police response might be and it 's not positive!! We need proper and sensible advice should such an occasion ever arise.

M0nica

I do not see how you can address one without taking into consideration the other. Men who use violence or kill other men, are highly likely to be men who terrorise and abuse women.

You are perfectly entitled to that opinion. However, wouldn't it be better to start another thread, making it plain what it is about, as the OP on this one did.

If people want to talk about your topic, then they will. They would also be able to to discuss this one, or both. There is nothing to stop you doing this. It would be better than an attempt to divert the original discusson to suit a completely new premise.

I have only read the first page and it already seemed to be a discussion about what we should be discussing. I wonder if it was intended to deflect from any discussion at all, although I can't see why you would want to.

If this has been sorted out I apologise. I will now try and read more than the first page.

lavenderzen

What a terrible case this has been. This should be a case for the resurrection of the death penalty. Why on earth do we have to pay for such monsters to reside in prison.

I agree this has been almost incomprehensible, but nothing would make me feel we should return to the death penalty.

I would be far more interested in finding out why condoning misogyny in the police force is so commonplace that no one worries about a man nickname "the rapist" by his colleagues.

GrannyGravy13 Thu 30-Sep-21 14:00:46

I won't repeat your post but separating cultures and saying one is worse than the other is not helpful. The supremacy accorded to white males is well known.

I heard someone today who commented, that in the police you can be: female, black or gay, as long as you still act like a white male. We need a progressive culture where all are equal and all are safe. In looking at how we get to that point, we need to take into account that women are the most vulnerable because of the culture of all our country.

I was living in a well known red light district, a Manchester suburb when the ripper was active in the late 70’s. Despite the walking to school journey being along 3 ‘middle class’ roads, I was propositioned daily. I’d be walking with 3 or more 6 year olds and my spaniel. ‘Are you working love, how much’ . I’d be wearing very ordinary clothes.
Going out at night was scary. Made safer by the police cars either end of the main road through, the key red light area. The police and sex workers made easy relationships. The working girls felt safer with a big police presence.
Here we are over 40 years later, still having the familiar arguments about women;s responsibility to be safe. Their ‘right’ to sell their bodies
It’s reported this met murderer used prostitutes. So many red flags

Oh did he. Every red flag in the book then.

Hetty, I do agree that most women are at risk of violence from someone known to them, I guess thinking about random killings such as Sutcliffe's victims, which were my era and my area, and these completely random killings are different, leci bellfields victims, gosh so many random killings. I've known domestic violence and yes that is terrifying, but if you are trapped in such a relationship it doesn't come. Out of the blue when you are walking home thinking you will soon be home.
I'm afraid I don't have much good experience with reporting things to the police, last time I went for help I left without being properly listened to and I was bullied so left without leaving my name
Sutcliffe made out that he had had a message from God to rid the streets of prostitutes, but he attacked other women before the killing spree, and a man believed that it was him who attacked him. It didn't fit the narrative of someone who hated prostitutes, who were somehow responsible as they were putting themselves into danger. Look at how the search for him ramped up when he started killing 'respectable' women. The message from God was just a way of showing he was mad not bad. He just was looking for women on their own who were vulnerable, as most of these apparently random murdered women were. They seem to go out with the rools of their trade and it is whoever comes along at the right time
I cannot understand what is in their mind doing this sort of thing
I've been on many a train full of football supporters going home, and have never really felt unsafe, they have been drunk and noisy, but have never seemed to be interested in random strangers, but maybe if I'd been wearing the wrong colour scarf it might have been dufferent

Whitewavemark2

Misogyny should be made a crime.

Indeed.

Misogyny: hatred or contempt for women or girls

Why is it not already a hate crime?

I have three things to say:

1. The case that you refer to is a particularly heinous crime, in that it was planned and carried out by a serving police officer using their position of trust to trap his prey. Sadly, he is not alone in abusing his position in this way, and never will be.
2. Both civilian and Military police have and will continue to commit crimes in much like any group of society, they are people, and sadly society has its bad pennies
3. Ultimately as women we have a duty to protect ourselves. If you are signalled by police to move over and not by a marked car, you should never stop, but drive to somewhere safe, a garage, police station, hospital and ask for uniformed police to be called. A genuine pull over will not have any objection.

Elegran

We shouldn't have to lock up our jewellery or our money either, but as well as trying to make sure that our children are brought up not to appropriate whatever catches their eye, like magpies, or to deprive someone of hard-earned cash out of greed, we also put our valuables away out of sight or lodge them in the bank.
If we could be certain that predators won't (to use a Victorian term) "steal our honour" or beat us up or murder us, we could relax about keeping alert for danger, just as we could leave our diamond necklaces (if only!) on the windowsill, with the window open to a bus street.

That’s your comparison?

Goodness.

My virtue/life as a diamond necklace.

Pippa You misunderstood me. To quote a well known saying. To tackle crime, you need to tackle the causes of crime. To make women safe, not just on the streets, but anywhere, violence in men must be tackled at every level.

Just flooding the streets with police officers is good headline news, but it is like putting a sticking plaster on a chronic ulcer. It makes it less unpleasant to look at, but it doesn't do anything to cure the problem.

I have seen research that shows men violent with their own sex are more likely to be use violence in their personal relationships than men who are not - and it is in the home that most women suffer violence, not on the streets.

I have come to this thread late but I think we need to be very careful about making making dramatic and over emotional statements such as 50% of the population are threatened by rape, assault etc. I’ve never been threatened nor have my friends or family. I have two sons, and two brothers who have only shown respect and consideration for women. Not all men are rapists as some on here seem to believe and not all women have been assaulted. Rape is a terrible crime and those who commit rape and assaults on women should be severely punished. But to accuse all men of being rapists is morally wrong. Most men support women and abhor rape.

Geymetj I have two daughters now grown who have shocking tales to tell about suddenly being grabbed and groped by random young men in pubs at parties and clubs etc. Their friends have the same experience.
These men are sons and brothers of women who would no doubt be horrified to know how their loved ones were behaving but behave like this they can and do.
Now with social media things are even worse for school girls and young women.
50% of the population are female hence the risk. Most of the abuse is perpetrated by males and that cannot be denied.

Good posts Daftbag1 and Gwyneth??????