Look at Me

Most of the posts I have read on here have been both negative and defensive. I can understand why the "it's not all men" and "my OH/sons are not a threat" type of comments on here are made but couldn't we be more positive?

When my son was about 16/17, he and his friends all seemed to be tall. You know how you get artistic years, academic years, sporty years - theirs was, among other things, tall. They were also very confident young men. I can remember saying to my son that when they were out as a group, they could seem very daunting and, was it possible for them to remember to move aside for "people like me" when they were walking over the vast expanses of parkland in our town. I expect they did anyway. I wanted him to have some understanding of how it can feel to a lone woman. I went on to say that if they were out at night and got behind a woman walking on her own, it would be nice to cross the street and get ahead of her.

I don't know how they would know just how vulnerable women can feel if we don't tell them. So rather than arguing the toss about who is to blame, can't we be positive. Can't we suggest small things that can help those nice men in our lives, young and old, be more aware of how women feel and what they can do to make them feel safer?

My daughter-in-law went on a safety course and was told that if you are getting into a taxi by yourself, take a photo of the license plate and send it to someone. If you later feel that the driver has ill intentions, tell him that you have notified someone of the car's details and he can easily be traced. I thought that was a good idea.

An earlier poster said women shoud not have to take safety precautions. No - they shouldn't, but that would be to foolishly ignore the facts; attacks , rapes, murders happen and if you adopt the attitude that you are not going to be mindful of your own safety because you don't think you should have to, I cannot think of a more dangerous position to place yourself.

M0nica I didn't say all boys from rough neighbourhoods are violent I said one way a boy survives is to ensure he can fight.
As for the big people and little people it isn't always like this, or the 6ft+ rugby player I know, who didn't have the sense to get out when a fight started in the pub he was drinking in, wouldn't have had his jaw broken. Someone just wanted to take the big bloke down.
Of course there are instances of violence in other areas. But those people have more choice and violence isn't something children see regularly (although the internet can change that). The bullying and misogyny in posh blokes is much more difficult to identify and deal with. It's probably typified in our PM who would help a friend find someone to beat another man up (but not do it himself) who castigated the poor when younger and treats women abominably (but for some reason some seem to like it)

I think it was Erin Pizzey founder of women's refuges who became concerned that some of the women in refuges came from families where violence was normal. She was villified for saying it and accused of not supporting women. But if we don't look at the culture how can we find ways of changing it?

www.facebook.com/PoliceScotland/photos/a.440026319413126/4438455386236846/

www.facebook.com/strutsafe/

Yes, and to be told to phone the police station to check, flag down a bus or ring 999, is rather ludicrous if you find yourself in this situation. I feel very uneasy going out at night, even driving. I only go out if absolutely necessary and I live in a quiet rural area, mind you, this doesn’t mean it is safer!

Galaxy

I just dont see how you could police misogyny as a hate crime, take social media alone, its pretty much constant.

The same as you police homophobia and racism, surely.

Big people hit little people because they are smaller and weaker than them and cannot retaliate. When it comes to men and women, then sex enters into it.

I am sure plenty of the women on here can remembered being bullied and attacked by older and bigger girls at school. Why? Because we were seen to be different and weaker in some way and they knew we would not be able to hit back.

I am broadly in agreement with Trisher, but do not share her fatalistic view that if a boy comes from a rough neighbourhood, he has to be violent. There are plenty of boys from rough neighbourhoods, with supportive parents who are not violent, nor is their wider social network. It also sounds very classist, suggesting that if you come from a nice area with a nice family all is sweetness and light.

There are far too many stories in the newspapers to show that children living in the most expensive area, whether they go to state or private schools, can be as nasty, as violent and as big a bullies, and hold the most misogynist views as any child living in a rough area.

Look at last weeks case where three children were convicted of murdering another child in their school. All had impeccable comfortable home backgrounds. I know the area, it isn't far from where I live, my friends had children at the same school. It is a comfortable suburban/ semi-rural area on the edge of a wealthy town.

I have been a victim more than once. It's been happening since men first dragged women into their caves by the hair and it will never, ever stop.

Too many men seem programmed to take what they want from women. It doesn't surprise me that it has occurred within the police force since it is a male-dominated profession.

Sorry to be negative. I believe it to be true.

My thoughts are with the family. I'm not sure how I would even begin to cope with a horror as enormous as this within my family.

I agree with you trisher. Schools can only go so far in changing attitudes and teachers run the risk of being accused as "wokey wokes" if they do.

Violence against women is mostly committed by men they know, not by complete strangers in the street. And yet these rare occurrences horrific though they may be are the ones which make the headlines. Perhaps it's because there is nothing glamorous about the wife or girlfriend systematically beaten or raped. Because those women don't want their stories in the paper, don't want to expose themselves to the criminal justice system, which will scrutinise and criticise their lifestyle. They won't go to refuges or move from the area because they know their family will suffer. Their only hope really is that some male relative will be able to deal with their abuser for them. It isn't a pleasant life style. It's interesting that Marina Hyde thinks this should start with primary school education. It''s a problem most primary schools in rough areas know about and it is essentially unsolvable. Because how do you tell a parent that their son shouldn't be fighting or using violence when in the world outside the school knowing how to fight and hold his own may save his life? You can stop it in school but once outside the same rules don't apply.
I've seen mothers encouraing their sons to solve things with a fight, seen them not kiss or cuddle them after a certain age because they don't want to make them soft. I don't blame them. I don't live in the sort of areas they do. Male violence is an intrinsic part of some of our society. It isn't all the fault of the young men who are inducted into it. It isn't all the fault of the families and society they grow up in. Women undoubtedly suffer because of it, but some of the men involved are victims too because they know no other way of life. And I really don't know how you change it.

Marina Hyde has an excellent article on this in the Guardian.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/women-prey-authority-violence-against-women

After everything that has happened, Johnson’s government are going to relax necessary checks on child carers.

Dear oh dear.

I just dont see how you could police misogyny as a hate crime, take social media alone, its pretty much constant.

Dickens

Whitewavemark2

Just for once let’s concentrate on the issue under discussion half of the total population being threatened raped, suffer violence, killed by almost entirely by the other half if the population.

Men’s violence in men should be put aside.

I agree.

I've just come off a social media site where this was being discussed and the usual "what about the men that are murdered" came up - from more than one individual (all were male contributors). One even brought Abortion into the discussion - women "murdering" their unborn children.

The thing about violence against women by men - is that is is BECAUSE they are women. Men attacking and murdering other men happens for various reasons, personal vendettas, drug-related, or even fights that just get out of hand.

Do men feel under threat from women when they are walking home alone at night - do they fear they will be attacked by them, abducted or raped by them? I doubt it.

Men being attacked and murdered is a separate issue - the one thing we have in common is that most of the attacks are perpetrated by other MEN.

Just in case anyone thinks I'm a man-hater... I'm not. The majority of men I've ever met in my life have been kind, considerate human beings - some are spectacular human beings too.

This is about the culture of the casual acceptance of even mild misogyny, the acceptance of jokes about women, about rape. Not to mention the casual misogyny b those in positions of power and the dire number of rape convictions.

Men matter - the fact that young men are being slaughtered on our streets matters, but it really is a separate issue to that of violence against women perpetrated by men.

Good post Dickens. Thanks.
I’m lucky. I live with a kind man who supports feminism and is a great father/role model . He isn’t the only such man in our family/friendship group. That doesn’t prevent any of us being able to name the problem of male violence, especially that towards women and children.
Male violence, misogyny, use of prostitutes, violent porn etc etc needs naming, acknowledging and addressing by policy makers, educators, within workplaces and families

I do believe that misogyny should be classed as a hate crime, alongside racism and homophobia. Misogyny adversely affects some 50% of the population. Classing it as a hate crime would help move it up the agenda.

As for how normal, decent men can help (and that's most men, surely), we can all call out nasty so-called 'low level' misogyny when we come across it; smutty jokes among 'blokes', casual sexist behaviour in any form. What seems to go on among some in the Police force is shameful.

This sort of behaviour should be unacceptable in a civilized society.

We are supposed to feel safe and trust the Police force completely, but after this horrific crime by a Police man, how do we begin to trust anyone in the Police force, especially hearing women who have been the force and have been subjected to harrasment by other officers, arent the Police vetted before they are accepted in a post,if not its time they were fully investigated, to keep scum from joining the force,and putting us into more danger.

Whitewavemark2

Just for once let’s concentrate on the issue under discussion half of the total population being threatened raped, suffer violence, killed by almost entirely by the other half if the population.

Men’s violence in men should be put aside.

I agree.

I've just come off a social media site where this was being discussed and the usual "what about the men that are murdered" came up - from more than one individual (all were male contributors). One even brought Abortion into the discussion - women "murdering" their unborn children.

The thing about violence against women by men - is that is is BECAUSE they are women. Men attacking and murdering other men happens for various reasons, personal vendettas, drug-related, or even fights that just get out of hand.

Do men feel under threat from women when they are walking home alone at night - do they fear they will be attacked by them, abducted or raped by them? I doubt it.

Men being attacked and murdered is a separate issue - the one thing we have in common is that most of the attacks are perpetrated by other MEN.

Just in case anyone thinks I'm a man-hater... I'm not. The majority of men I've ever met in my life have been kind, considerate human beings - some are spectacular human beings too.

This is about the culture of the casual acceptance of even mild misogyny, the acceptance of jokes about women, about rape. Not to mention the casual misogyny b those in positions of power and the dire number of rape convictions.

Men matter - the fact that young men are being slaughtered on our streets matters, but it really is a separate issue to that of violence against women perpetrated by men.

I think we should be careful about what we say effalump yes there are bad things happening but so many good people as well. The past had its problems in the same way.

There is definitely something Evil happening at the moment. I remember thirty years ago, working in a pub and regularly would walk the 15 minutes home at 1.30am (after the staff had a few drinks). It never bothered me then, but now, once we are on dark nights I stay in from about 4pm and keep the doors locked.

Galaxy

Crikey comparing womens bodies to a necklace, I struggle to leave my vagina at home when out and about.

Summerlove Galaxy I've only just read your replies to my post. You have both missed my point, which is that we would not be careless of what is valuable in cash terms. We should value our lives and "virtue" more, and take what care we can of their safety - while at the same time we are campaigning for a change in the culture that makes some men attack both of them.

Daftbag1

I have three things to say:

1. The case that you refer to is a particularly heinous crime, in that it was planned and carried out by a serving police officer using their position of trust to trap his prey. Sadly, he is not alone in abusing his position in this way, and never will be.
2. Both civilian and Military police have and will continue to commit crimes in much like any group of society, they are people, and sadly society has its bad pennies
3. Ultimately as women we have a duty to protect ourselves. If you are signalled by police to move over and not by a marked car, you should never stop, but drive to somewhere safe, a garage, police station, hospital and ask for uniformed police to be called. A genuine pull over will not have any objection.

Sadly Daftbag1 you are right that a small number of police will commit crimes. We need a system that ensures any policeman whose colleagues refer to him as The Rapist and who is linked to an incident of going naked from the waist down through a McDonald's drive-in is not still going about his police business 72 hours later.

With regard to not stopping for an unmarked car. How many of us would not panic in such a situation? Someone is flashing their lights, holding up a police badge and signalling for you to stop.

Would you honestly have the presence of mind to drive on, get out of your car and walk to a public place and ask for help? Would you think that you were going to end up in a great deal of trouble if you did that?

I live in a very remote area...the nearest garage, police station or hospital might be 50 miles away. What should I do? How should I protect myself?

I'm not saying I have the answer, but I am saying it's not that simple.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

We are not damning 50% of the population, but when are men going to take responsibility?

What do you suggest men do?

I have a husband and four sons, along with many male friends and relatives what responsibility do you want them to take Whitewavemark2 ?

I think it is totally wrong to hold all men to account for the actions of a few.

Quite agree with you. You cannot generalise and label all men as potential abductors, rapists and murderers. I don't know what will make the streets safer for women but I would like to see more stringent background checks on men entering our country and for sentences to reflect the crime. Murder should be a whole life tariff for all killers. Anyone taking another person's life has to forfeit their own.

Sorry about typo Gwyneth, fat finger syndrome